the bible,truth,God's kingdom,Jehovah God,New World,Jehovah's Witnesses,God's church,Christianity,apologetics,spirituality.
Thursday, 27 July 2023
Color by design
The labrynth.
Against Christendom's theology
Against nincsnevem XVII
THE seventeenth of my responses to Mr.nevem
Nincsnevem:What does the "heavenly body" mentioned here mean? The text refers to the diversity of creatures on earth and in heaven as evidence of God's infinite power. So the "heavenly bodies" are, as written there: the Sun, the Moon, and the stars, i.e., celestial bodies. Remember back to the very first chapter of the Bible: "And God said, 'Let there be lights in the vault of the sky...'"
We see the trend of arguing by assertion rather than making a case continues here is the context of 15:40
1Corinthians ch.15:36-38ESV"But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body"
So nothing to do with the nonliving creation but the living Paul says that JEHOVAH would not need to reinvent wheel there are already models of living forms in heaven and earth each with its own glory angels are routinely compared to stars in the bible the resurrected sons of God are also compared to stars
Job ch.38:4-7ESV"On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
Daniel ch.12:3NIV"Those who are wise a will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. "
Revelation ch.22:16 NIV"“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you a this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
Against nincsnevem XVI
The sixteenth of my responses to Mr.nevem
Since you don't answer directly, I will do it for you: the term "spiritual body" ("sōma pneumatikos") is NOT used in the Bible for angels, since they do not have a "spiritual body",
First this is an argument from silence . One can't logical deduce anything from silence
1Corinthians ch.15:40ESV"For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another."
There are (present tense Heavenly bodies) so this is not speaking of what is to come but
Of what is now there are superhuman beings with bodies suited to a superphysical way of life e.g angels
1 John 3:2 also does not say anything about the resurrected ones becoming similar to the spirits in nature,
So what does it say
1John ch.3:2ESV"Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is."
We shall see him as he is and be like him
Exodus ch.33:20ESV"But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” "
It is impossible for humans to see JEHOVAH as he is and live
We understand all stated facts about JEHOVAH be permanent and unchangeable
By way of a second witnesses
1Timothy ch.6:16ESV"who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has EVER seen or CAN see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen."
This is why the human i.e flesh and blood CANNOT Inherit the superhuman
Flesh and blood refers to the human which is mortal by definition
Spirit refers to the superhuman only the superhuman can withstand that light
Nincsnevem"we do know what we will look like in the resurrection" - We know that it will truly be OUR OWN body (Philippians 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:38), not something transformed into an angel.
If we were transformed into angels we would know our own bodies the fact of the matter is that from birth we have changed bodies annually with no consciousness of having changed bodies so this is yet another non-argument the body that those in line for a resurrection in the superphysical realm will receive is adapted for life in that realm
And of course being a necessary element of ourselves we will recognise it as a necessary part of ourselves.
Phillipians ch.3:21NIV"who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."
Any body the person is raised up in would be his body we've had dozens of bodies over the course of our life and yet we think of them all as our one body there is no need to incorporate any of the substance from our corpse for the resurrected body to be OUR body
2Corinthians ch .5:1NIV"1For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. "
The old is destroyed to make way for the new
"where in SCRIPTURE does it say the angels don't have bodies" - Among others where Jesus says that the spirits do not have "bones and flesh" (Luke 24:39), but he does, hence He is not a spirit. Also in the places cited above.
More circular logic presume that all bodies are made of flesh and bones or that spirit here means spirit creature not an apparition and use your presuppositions as evidence
There are superphysical bodies. Physical bodies are not the only kinds of bodies referred to in scripture
1Corinthians ch.15:40NIV"There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. "
Each with its own glory Mr.Nevem
Nincsnevem:Why were the wounds of his crucifixion visible on Jesus?
As I have explained spirit creatures are able to materialise and dematerialise physical forms through which the communicate with humans
Genesis 6:4NIV"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."
Here are spirit beings materialising bodies capable of copulating with human females and producing offspring.
Reproducing some bodily scars would be child's play for such a being when I called spirit beings superhuman that is what I meant
When Jesus was appearing and disappearing he was always fully clothe sandals and all obviously he materialised the clothes as well
Against Nincsnevem XIV
My fourteenth installment of responses against Mr. Nevem
Similarly, the Scripture explicitly and decisively teaches the pure spirituality of God, not only in an inductive way, attributing understanding and will to Him, but by presenting God as a sovereign power over matter. Moreover: God is not like humans: He has no body, He is not visible, cannot be represented by an image, He is the father of spirits (Ex 33:20, Deut 4,1–6, Is 31,3, 40:18; Heb 12,9); He is simply a spirit: "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." (Jn 4,24; cf. Lc 24,39 2 Cor 3,7 1 Tim 6,16)
All spirit would imply is invisible and intangible to humans there is no implication of incorporeality and corporeality does not imply a humanoid body which of course was designed for the physical world there heavenly bodies
Very distinct from anything in the physical world
1Corithians ch.15:40NIV"There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another"
Exodus ch.33:20 ESV"But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”"
So he has a form just not one visible to humans
Deuteronomy ch.4:1-6ESV"“And now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the rulesa that I am teaching you, and do them, that you may live, and go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you. 3Your eyes have seen what the LORD did at Baal-peor, for the LORD your God destroyed from among you all the men who followed the Baal of Peor. 4But you who held fast to the LORD your God are all alive today. 5See, I have taught you statutes and rules, as the LORD my God commanded me, that you should do them in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 6Keep them and do them, for that will be your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, who, when they hear all these statutes, will say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people"
Again nothing to see here.
Isaiah ch.31:3ESV"The Egyptians are man, and not God,
and their horses are flesh, and not spirit.
When the LORD stretches out his hand,
the helper will stumble, and he who is helped will fall,
and they will all perish together."
Suggesting that flesh and spirit are mutually exclusive
But nothing about corporeality
Hebrews ch.12:9ESV"Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?"
Circular logic presume that superphysical means incorporeal
And use presumption as evidence
But these spirits are in danger of death if they disobey not torture.
2Corinthians ch.3:7ESV"Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, "
Nothing about the subject
You get basically more arguing in a circle.
Against Nincsnevem XIII
The thirteenth of my responses against Mr. Nevem
Nincsnevem:"With this in mind we should understand the statement that “the last Adam became a life-giving spirit” (1 Cor. 15:45). As spirit, Jesus also had a body, a body of glory (Phil. 3:21). The “spiritual body” that Christ had when He was raised from death and the spiritual body that we will have at the resurrection is not an immaterial body, but a body that is no longer subject to death and decay (1 Cor. 15:44)."
All spirit beings have bodies and glorious bodies at that
Your asserting a thing does not demonstrate it to be true a debate/dialog is not a lecture no one here recognise any authority you claim on these issues if you want to persuade anyone you to have to demonstrate from scripture
Nincsnevem:Further, when Paul says that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor. 15:50), He must mean that that which is mortal, earthly, and perishable cannot inherit God’s kingdom. “Flesh and blood” can simply mean mortal man, as a comparison with Jesus’ words at Matthew 16:17 reveals: “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.”
Flesh and blood pertains to the human even a sinless human like Jesus lower than angels it does not necessarily have anything to do with sin
Nincsnevem:1 Corinthians 15:45 - “’life-giving spirit’ does not speak of the nature of the resurrection body, but of the divine origin of the resurrection. Jesus’ physical body came back to life only by the power of God (cf. Rom. 1:4). So, Paul is speaking about its spiritual source, not its physical substance
More argument by assertion also called the circular logic fallacy
Romans ch.1:4ESV"and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
Which tells us nothing of relevance
Nincsnevem:, Paul is speaking about its spiritual source, not its physical substance as a material body. In summation, the resurrection body is called ‘spiritual’ and ‘life-giving spirit’ because its source is the spiritual realm, not because its substance is immaterial. Christ’s supernatural resurrection body is ‘from heaven,’ as Adam’s natural body was ‘of the earth’ (v. 47). But just as the one from ‘earth’ also has an immaterial soul, even so the One from ‘heaven’ also has a material body.”
In other words Paul was implying a contrast where there was absolutely none actually by this standard the both Adams are from heaven the first Adam's body was created ab initio the second Adam had a human mother and he did not become a spirit at his resurrection he was a spirit in a body before the rejoining of his restored corpse to his immortal spirit and afterward he was the same both Adams are exactly the same so what was Paul on about.
1Corinthians ch.15:45-49KJV"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."
As you read observe what the verse does not say .It does not say that the first Adam RECEIVED a soul it says he BECAME a living soul so you can think of say Mary going to law school and BECOMING a lawyer, no one would understand the lawyer that Mary had become as being distinct from Mary such that the lawyer that Mary had become could survive Mary's death .
Vs. 47 does not say that the first Adam's body is from the earth it says the first man who became a living soul was made of earth. Clearly we are talking about the nature of the entire man
Going back to verse 45 it does not say that the second Adam was always a spirit and upon his resurrection received a spiritual body. It says quite clearly that that the second Adam BECAME a lifegiving spirit again the nature of the second Adam is being contrasted with the nature of the first Adam there is no resurrection of a body it is the person who is resurrected.
We know that spirit beings can incarnate it's not their usual state but in order to communicate with humans without overly alarming them JEHOVAH'S angels have done this in the past
See Genesis ch.19:1,5 once Jesus became a Spirit being he would have this ability. That would explain why he could simply appear or vanish into thin air
Luke ch.24:31KJV"And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he VANISHED out of their sight."
In fact the reason they taught they were SEEING an APPARITION at Luke ch.24:339 (spirit beings are invisible) was because of the manner that he appeared out of thin air
Luke ch.24:36KJV"And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. "
This mysterious appearing and disappearing argues that Jesus had in fact exchanged his human perfection for superhuman perfection. Being aware of the capabilities of superhuman spirit beings to materialise and dematerialise humanoid bodies the fact that Jesus was tangible on some occasions before his glorification proves nothing one way or the other
Let us look again at the sequence at 2Corinthians ch.5:1NIV"For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. "
There is no remodelling the old house from a human source is Junked and a house from an entirely different source replaces it.
Against Nincsnevem XII
The twelfth installment of my responses Mr.Nevem.
"Anyway, where does the Bible say that either God or the angels have a "spiritual BODY?"
Luke ch.20:32 they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. "
Suggesting that they and the heavenly angels have similar bodies
1John ch.3:2KJV"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
If we a going to have the same human bodies we've had all our lives we do know what we will look like in the resurrection,John says it is impossible to know the appearance of heavenly resurrection body because it will resemble God's own body that no man has ever seen.
Suggesting that God does have a body though unlike anything in creation.
I can flip the question back at you where in SCRIPTURE does it say the angels don't have bodies or where is it specified that God has no body we know for instance that angels came to the patriarchs in the form of men
Against nincsnevem XI
The eleventh installment in my responses to Mr.Nevem
Wednesday, 26 July 2023
Darwinists spin an explosion(don't try this at home)
Evolutionists Spin the Cambrian Explosion — But Alas, All in Vain
Shaking the foundation of Darwinism
The Other Unsolved Problem of Evolution
Against nincsnevem X
The tenth installment in my responses to Mr.nevem.
Against Nincsnevem IX
The ninth installment of my responses to mr.nevem
Against NincsNevem VIII
The eight in my responses to Mr.nevem
Against Nincsnevem. VII
"This is really easy to answer: according to his human nature, Jesus is a Messianic King, according to his human nature he is the heir to David's throne, and of course Jesus' humanity is not God, not YHWH. Jesus' human and divine natures are distinct but inseparable.,"
Here is the thing Mr.nevem the verse makes no mention of a nature but of a person so if this person( not nature) is equal to his Father is not the most high or he is his own Father stop putting words in the prophet's mouth
Also there is a small matter of the Holy Spirit who is not the Father of Jesus according to the Nicene creed and not incarnated if he is equal to the Father then obviously the Father of Jesus is not the most high.
So your fudge fails the person (not the nature) of the Father is greater than the person of the Son and if the spirit is a person greater than the person of the spirit.
Luke ch.1:32NIV"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, "
A similar problem exists with Matthew ch.24:36
Matthew ch.24:36KJV"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my FATHER ONLY. "
Why would the unincarnated Spirit not know the day or hour
And if you could just put the smug away for a minute(because it is clearly impeding your judgment) you will see that the question was mainly about the identity of the most high because, by definition the most high can have no equals so who is this unequalled Father of Jesus.
So it really doesn't matter whether the human Jesus was less than his father if there is a divine Jesus that is equal to his Father his Father is not the MOST HIGH as per the dictionary definition of that term
Against nincsnevem VI
The sixth of my responses to Mr.Nevem
Against nincsnevem V
The fifth installment in my responses to Mr.Nevem
On the most high God and his son
The God and Father of Jesus Christ is the most high God (human councils notwithstanding)
Against nincsnevem IV
My fourth installment on my responses to Mr.Nevem
"God would undergo change by incarnation if he were to become human in such a way as to cease to remain God; "
God would also under go change if he became a creature the categories of Creator and creature are mutually exclusive.
Hosea ch.11:9ESV"I will not execute my burning anger;
I will not again destroy Ephraim;
for I am God and not a man,
the Holy One in your midst,
and I will not come in wrath.c"
Unless this is not meant to be understood as a permanent and unchangeable in carries no force.
1Kings ch.18:27KJV"27And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked."
The notion that JEHOVAH Can ever be subject to human frailties is nothing but grist for mockery
Sophistry masquerading as sophistication.