Against nincsnevem ad pluribus XV

Nincs:In Revelation 3:14, "arkhe" can indeed mean "beginning," but it should not be understood in the modern English way, but as "principle", hint: the English "principle" is a Latin loanword, Latin principium, which is how the Vulgate translates it in Rev. 3:14, as well as John 1:1a tc. The NT's usage in other contexts emphasizes a role of preeminence and authority, aligning with the interpretation of Christ as the "first principle" or "originator" of creation. By the way, according to the modern consensus, the author of Revelation is not the same John as the one who wrote the Gospel or the three Johannine epistles.

me:Arkhe is used with regard to the Logos in the sense of beginning 

1John ch.1:1NKJV"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— "

As for your claim that the consensus asserts that a different John wrote Revelation. The argument by assertion fails regardless of numbers. There is no such consensus.

Compare John ch.1:1, Revelation 19:13,1John ch.1:1

The entire Bible is the single work of the one divine author.

He is the beginning of JEHOVAH'S Creation the one he only two verses earlier ,see Revelation ch.3:12, identifies as MY GOD, and not his own creation. Therefore in view of the context he is clearly not the source of the creation.

At proverbs ch.8:22 we see that JEHOVAH'S wisdom expressed His Logos is cana/begotten

See Genesis ch.4:1 for another example of cana as birth language, as the beginning of his work 

Proverbs ch.8:24,25NKJV"When there were no depths I was brought forth,

When there were no fountains abounding with water.

25Before the mountains were settled,

Before the hills, I was brought forth;"

Birth language is used of JEHOVAH To denote his creative work even of the inanimate creation. See psalms ch.90:2.

Obviously his being the first creation and his being the greatest creation are not mutually exclusive indeed the one would make the other more likely.

Nincs:The verb "ktizo" indeed allows for a double accusative construction, changing the emphasis from a mere creation to a designation of role, i.e., to make someone something (e.g., make him "arkhe" or "reshit"). This nuanced understanding supports the interpretation of Wisdom’s foundational role rather than a literal creation event. This is a critical distinction often overlooked in simpler translations.

Me:Again the two things are not mutually exclusive what is off the table is anyone creating "dia" JEHOVAH The Bible makes it clear that he is the ultimate source of the creation we know that he uses prior creations as instruments and or raw materials later creations this does not make these prior creations co-creators because ALL of the information and energy in them and through them is from him JEHOVAH Created the foundations of both the physical and superphysical creation.

Nincs:Isaiah 44:24 explicitly states that Yahweh alone created the heavens and the earth, which inherently excludes any secondary deities or entities from this creative role. This monotheistic assertion aligns with the broader scriptural narrative, emphasizing Yahweh's sole sovereignty in creation.

    Me:this falsifies a creation dia an uncreated mediator as such would be a supplement but not JEHOVAH'S Standard procedure of creating later creations with prior ones as a instruments and or raw materials as no creature would be a supplement to JEHOVAH'S Power or wisdom.

    So any mediator must be a creation.

Hence this mediator is called the prototokos of creation see colossians ch.1:15 the term prototokos always denotes inclusion in the set of which he is prototokos, whether literally or figuratively there literally no exceptions o this uniformity. The fact that all we ever get from the other side is either crickets or red herrings when we ask them to produce an exception is compelling evidence in itself but please feel free to get a concordance and check for yourself.

   

Nincs:https://www.catholiccrossreference.online/fathers/index.php/Isaiah%2044:24

Look at what the church fathers write, there is no sign that they exclude "only" pagan gods, not alleged demiurges, angels, etc.

Me:The demiurge is uncreated so bears closer resemblance to christendom's version of the Logos so basically you are arguing with yourself the scriptures show that it is standard procedure for JEHOVAH create "dia" prior creations

Genesis ch.6:7NNKJV"7So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” "

Of course none of the human or subhuman creatures then existing were created directly by JEHOVAH Yet he could be justly credited with their existence as all the information an energy that made them what they were came out of him.

Nincs:Tertullian argues against Hermogenes' view that matter is eternal and co-existent with God. He emphasizes that God alone is the Creator who "stretched out the heavens alone" (Isaiah 44:24), countering any notion that matter or any other entity shares this creative power. Tertullian addresses the unity of God and the distinction between the Father and the Son. He affirms that while God says He stretched out the heavens alone, this does not exclude the Son but rather includes Him in the divine act of creation, emphasizing the Son's unity with the Father.

 Me:Red herring alert the God and Father of Jesus is plainly declared to be the One God of Israel by Jesus himself see John ch.8:54 again this is re:the relationship of the God and Father of Jesus with the nation of Israel see also Luke 1:32 where the God and Father of Jesus us called the MOST HIGH God . Thus excluding ALL others including the unincarnated spirit from the category of MOST HIGH God.

 Thus when the God of Israel, the most high God declares that it was his power and wisdom ALONE that are to be credited for the existence of the creation all save the God and of Jesus are excluded.

Nincs:Athanasius explains that when Scripture says God created alone, it implicitly includes the Son. He stresses that the Son, being the Word of God, was present and active in creation, thus maintaining the unity and co-eternity of the Son with the Father. He argues against Arianism by highlighting that God declaring "I alone" in creation includes the Son as the Word through whom all things were made. This assertion upholds the Son’s divinity and eternal nature, countering the Arian view of the Son as a created being.

Me: actually the scriptures explicitly name the GOD and Father of Jesus as the MOST HIGH GOD : Luke ch.1:32NKJV"He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the LORD God will give Him the throne of His father David."

Clearly excluding Son and Spirit from the category of MOST HIGH GOD 

     John Ch.10:30NKJV"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than ALL(Not most); and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. "

Clearly excluding Son and Spirit from the category of the MOST HIGH GOD

John ch.17:3NKJV"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

 Clearly excluding Son and Spirit from the category of only true God.

  1Corinthians ch.8:6NKJV"yet for us there is ONE GOD, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live"

Clearly excluding Son and Spirit from the category of God who is the source of all the power and wisdom in the creation, while excluding the MOST HIGH GOD JEHOVAH from the category of Lord "dia" whom JEHOVAH'S Power is channeled so a double whammy against trinitarian absurdity.

    Matthew ch.16:16NKJV"Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of THE living God.”"

Clearly excluding the Son and the spirit from the category of self sustaining God.

John ch.6:57NKJV"As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. "

Note the spirit is nor even mentioned and clearly the Son is not self sustaining like the MOST HIGH GOD JEHOVAH is,  self-existence along with supremacy are attributes of the MOST HIGH GOD Any without these attributes are clearly not the JEHOVAH of the Bible.

Matthew ch.24:36NKJV"“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father ONLY. "

Clearly excluding the Son and Spirit from the category of omniscient God.

Ephesians ch.4:6NKJV"one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in [c]you all."

Clearly excluding the Son and Spirit from the category of the supreme God

This why the unqualified "ho theos" is used exclusively of the God and Father of Jesus also while the expression (The)God the Father is common in the N.T the expression God the son or God the spirit are TOTALLY absent. The monarchy of the God and Father Jesus the Lord JEHOVAH is plainly declared O.T and N.T alike.

Nincs:Ambrose discusses the concept of God working alone in creation. He states that this "alone" includes the Son, who is described in Proverbs 8:30 as being with the Father during creation. This interpretation aligns with the understanding of the Trinity, where the Son is co-eternal and consubstantial with the Father. 

Me:I thought the wisdom here in proverbs ch.822-30 was merely an abstract quality and not a living person. If we go back we verse24,25 we see that this one was brought forth by JEHOVAH in line with Jesus declaration at John ch.6:57 . So clearly is not JEHOVAH Who is no ones Son but everyone's Father. Being creation he cannot be regarded as a supplement to JEHOVAH'S Power and wisdom any more than the parents who played a very active role in our creation by JEHOVAH.

In search of a place like home.

 

A coarse response to the finetuning argument?

 On Fine-Tuning, Responding to an Atheist YouTuber

Eric Hedin

James Fodor is a neuroscience grad student at the University of Melbourne in Australia who identifies himself as an atheist. In a recently published YouTube video, Fodor confidently presents what he thinks are a number of problems with the fine-tuning argument. After taking the time to carefully go through his 40-minute video, I believe that he has overestimated the significance of his arguments in presenting a case against theism.

Fodor begins by outlining the fine-tuning argument and then expresses his objection to a “fixation on constants” (such as the strengths of the fundamental forces, the masses of elementary particles, etc.). He declares that the constants have no meaning outside of a set of physical laws (I believe he means equations), and that we have “no idea of what the universe would be like if the laws were different.” In support of his contention that different universes could or would have different physical laws (not just physical constants), he pulls a quote from a paper by Luke Barnes, titled “The Fine-Tuning of the Universe for Intelligent Life.” Ironically, the main focus of Barnes’ paper is supporting the theistic fine-tuning argument, using physics and cosmology, as he refutes a dubious critique of fine-tuning by the late atheistic physicist Victor Stenger.

Barnes addresses the issue of whether the fine-tuning argument would be undermined by allowing different universes to have different equations for the laws of nature, but he reaches an entirely contradictory conclusion to Fodor’s.

The intuition here is that, if ours were the only universe, and if the causes that established the physics of our universe were indifferent to whether it would evolve life, then the chances of hitting upon a life-permitting universe are very small. 

BARNES, P. 3

Barnes argues that allowing alternate universes to possess laws of physics contrary to our own does nothing to alleviate the curious condition that laws and constants of nature in our universe are fine-tuned to allow life. One of the fundamental truths of physics is that any attempt to describe our universe from a purely theoretical perspective is insufficient. We have to “open the window,” so to speak, and take a look at our world in order to actually know what it’s like. This means that the universe could have been different than it is. The way it is, compared to the ways it could have been, shows knife-edged fine tuning for life.

A Tautological Argument

Such fine-tuning for life cannot be dismissed with a tautological argument saying, “Of course our universe has parameters that allow intelligent life. If it didn’t, we wouldn’t be here.” I suppose a limited amount of brilliance shines through those who contend against fine-tuning with this argument, but the fine-tuning argument far out-shines this dull retort. As I state in my book, Canceled Science, 

Yes, the values of the laws and constants of nature must be in a range that allows us to exist if we’re going to be around to notice our good fortune, but the surprising thing is how narrow this range of possible values turns out to be….Our being here to discover fine tuning doesn’t require that those parameters be balanced on a knife edge. Since they are, we have an additional reason to suspect, as the distinguished astronomer Fred Hoyle has famously said, that a “super-intellect has monkeyed with physics.” 

CANCELED SCIENCE, P. 64

Consider Velocity

Are the equations expressing the laws of nature determined by nature or are they in fact more fundamental relations between physical concepts, such as space, time, mass, force, energy, and fields? For example, let’s look at the basic physics relation expressed as “distance equals velocity multiplied by time,” which follows from a definition of velocity as displacement per time. Is it even meaningful to postulate a hypothetical universe in which this definition doesn’t hold? 

Or, take the example of Newton’s universal law of gravity, where the force between two masses, m1 and m2, separated by a distance r, is given by F=Gm1m2/r2. This relation could be found by making careful measurements, but its form could also be derived based on the geometry of three-dimensional space and symmetry considerations. However, what cannot be mathematically derived from any fundamental theory of physics is the value of the gravitational constant, G; it must be measured. The same argument for the form of the equation can be made for the fundamental force between charged particles, with the same need to observe our universe to obtain the value of the embedded constant.

Changing the exponent of the particle separation parameter, r, in the denominator of either equation implies a universe with a different number of spatial dimensions (say, two or four dimensions, instead of three). Contrary to Fodor’s statements, we know what this would imply — no life. With fewer than three dimensions, complex biochemistry cannot exist. With more than three dimensions, stable orbits, either for planets or for electrons orbiting nuclei, would not be possible

Imagining Universes

To further answer Fodor’s suggestion that fine-tuning is defeated because we can imagine universes with different laws of physics, a quote from Barnes is informative. Here he rebuts Stenger’s attempt to nullify the fine-tuning argument with a similar argument. 

In reply, fine-tuning isn’t about what the parameters and laws are in a particular universe. Given some other set of laws, we ask: if a universe were chosen at random from the set of universes with those laws, what is the probability that it would support intelligent life? If that probability is suitably (and robustly) small, then we conclude that that region of possible-physics-space contributes negligibly to the total life-permitting subset. It is easy to find examples of such claims.

A universe governed by Maxwell’s Laws “all the way down” (i.e. with no quantum regime at small scales) will not have stable atoms — electrons radiate their kinetic energy and spiral rapidly into the nucleus — and hence no chemistry (Barrow & Tipler, 1986, pg. 303). We don’t need to know what the parameters are to know that life in such a universe is plausibly impossible.

If electrons were bosons, rather than fermions, then they would not obey the Pauli exclusion principle. There would be no chemistry.

If gravity were repulsive rather than attractive, then matter wouldn’t clump into complex structures. 

If the strong force were a long rather than short-range force, then there would be no atoms. Any structures that formed would be uniform, spherical, undifferentiated lumps, of arbitrary size and incapable of complexity. 

BARNES, P. 18

After giving a few other examples of how variations of the laws of physics would render life impossible, Barnes acknowledges that extrapolating from our present knowledge of physics to other realms with widely varying laws would stretch our understanding beyond the point of certainty.

 We should be cautious, however. Whatever the problems of defining the possible range of a given parameter, we are in a significantly more nebulous realm when we try to consider the set of all possible physical laws.

BARNES, P. 19

In my opinion, our lack of God-like knowledge of the physics of all possible universes is an entirely irrelevant objection to the verity of the fine-tuning of the laws and constants of physics for this universe to support life. Barnes agrees:

 The point is this: however many ways there are of producing a life-permitting universe, there are vastly many more ways of making a life-prohibiting one…. Amidst the possible universes, life-permitting ones are exceedingly rare. This is fine-tuning par excellence. 

BARNES PP. 38-39

Against nincsnevem ad pluribus XIV

Nincs: The term "firstborn" (πρωτότοκος, prototokos) in Colossians 1:15 refers to rank and preeminence, not temporal order. The Watchtower's own publication, "Aid to Bible Understanding," states:

Me:Red herring alert the prototokos is ALWAYS a member of the set ALWAYS ,the first member ,the foremost member ,both the first and the foremost member because obviously these two categories are not mutually exclusive so that establishing that the prototokos belongs to the one category does not exclude his simultaneously being of the other category.

Mr. Nevems inability to provide a single falsification of this uniformity as we will all see pretty much seals the deal.

Nincs"David, who was the youngest son of Jesse, was called by Jehovah the “first-born,” due to Jehovah’s elevation of David to the preeminent position in God’s chosen nation and his making a covenant with David for a dynasty of kings. (Ps. 89:27) In this position David prophetically represented the Messiah."

"Jesus Christ, as the “first-born of all creation,” always faithful to his Father Jehovah God, has the birthright through which he has been appointed “heir of all things.”—Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:2"

So they admit that "firstborn" in Col. 1:15 is understood precisely in the Old Testament sense, which indicates a position of supremacy, not simply being the first created. Biblical precedent for this usage includes Psalm 89:27, where David, though not the firstborn son of Jesse, is called "firstborn" because of his preeminence and chosen status by God. This reinforces that "firstborn" indicates a status of preeminence rather than chronological birth order. Just as David was not the firstborn but was given the title due to his preeminence, Jesus is referred to as "firstborn of all creation" to indicate his supreme status over creation, not that he was the first created being.

Me:note please that in both these first example the prototokos is the foremost member of the group of which he is prototokos,so far Mr.Nevem is of to a flying start reinforcing the Bible's uniformity regarding the MANDATORY inclusion of the prototokos in the set of which he is prototokos. Don't be distracted whether he is the first member or the foremost member is besides the point.

Nincs:Thus in Colossians 1:15, Paul uses "firstborn" in a context that emphasizes Christ's authority and supremacy over all creation, which aligns with the biblical concept of birthright denoting rannincsk and preeminence. The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prototokos) in this context reflects Christ’s sovereignty and role as the heir and ruler of all things, not a temporal creation

Not all uses of "firstborn" in the NT imply temporal priority. For instance, in Hebrews 1:6, the term "firstborn" refers to Christ being brought into the world with a status that requires worship from the angels, indicating a position of honor and authority. Revelation 1:5 refers to Jesus as "the firstborn of the dead," which signifies his preeminence in resurrection, not that he was the first to be resurrected chronologically.

The term "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 aligns with the Old Testament usage to denote rank, preeminence, and authority rather than chronological birth order. This interpretation is consistent with both biblical context and the Watchtower’s own publications. The New Testament usage of "firstborn" emphasizes Christ’s supremacy and divine role, refuting the claim that it always indicates temporal priority.

Me:actually Hebrews days that the Logos was MADE Greater than the angels in a certain respect but only after being MADE Lower than the angels in every respect.

Hebrews ch.1:4KJV"Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."

Hebrews ch.2:9KJV"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

JEHOVAH Did not inherit his rank from anyone so clearly we are not talking about an equal which only makes sense as the Bible clearly refers to the God and Father of Jesus as the MOST HIGH God therefore as having no equals on either side. 

See Luke ch.1:32

When did he become firstborn here.

Hebrews ch.5:5KJV"So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, TO DAY have I BEGOTTEN thee."

At acts ch.13:33 Paul applies this to the resurrection. Is anyone going to deny that he is the firstborn member of that set both in the sense of being the first and foremost .

So the red herrings have once more failed to rescue Mr.nevem

Fighting dirty?

 

Against nincsnevem ad pluribus XIII

 Nincs:The term "prototokos" (firstborn) in Greek does not inherently mean "first created." It often signifies rank, preeminence, or priority in status rather than origin. Paul's use of "prototokos" in Colossians 1:15 emphasizes Jesus' supremacy and authority over all creation, indicating His preeminent status rather than suggesting He is part of the created order. The surrounding verses in Colossians 1:16-17 clarify that Jesus is the agent of creation: "For by Him all things were created... all things have been created through Him and for Him." This shows Jesus' active role as Creator, not as a part of creation. The term "prototokos" aligns with this context by highlighting Jesus' supreme authority over all creation, reinforcing His divine nature and role as Creator.

The term prototokos inherently indicates membership in the implicit or explicit set of which one is prototokos,this is even a rule ,rules have exceptions there NO(as in none whatsoever)exceptions to this uniformity in scripture, There for Jesus being the prototokos of creation MUST make him part of the creation, the fact that the creation occurs "dia" him proves that he is not the source of the creation as pointed out ad nauseum "dia" indicates instrumentality from dia we get the word diameter. Thus he us not the source of the power and wisdom in the creation it is merely being channeled through Him. Our parents play an active role in creating us but they are not considered co- creators.

Thayers re:prototokos at colossians ch.1:15

tropically Christ is called πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως (partitive genitive (see below), as in τά πρωτότοκα τῶν προβάτων, Genesis 4:4; τῶν βοῶν, Deuteronomy 12:17; τῶν υἱῶν σου, Exodus 22:29), who came into being through God prior to the entire universe of created things (R. V. the firstborn of all creation) (see κτίσις, 2 b.), 

Note the admission that this is in fact a patitive genitive a natural reading minus trinitarian mental gymnastics puts him among the creation his being the foremost creation would still mean that he is a creation.

Nincs:Hebrews 1:6 refers to Jesus as the "firstborn" and clearly positions Him above all angels, emphasizing His superiority rather than His inclusion in the category of angels. The term "monogenes" means "only-begotten" or "unique," highlighting Jesus' unique relationship with the Father. This does not imply creation but signifies a unique and eternal relationship. In the New Testament, "monogenes" is used to emphasize the uniqueness and special status of Jesus as the Son of God (John 1:14, 3:16).

Actually the verse says he was MADE higher than the angels but only after his being MADE lower than the angels. Both statements are unacceptable re:JEHOVAH Who is immutable the MOST HIGH God and thus cannot be MADE higher or lower than his unchangeable supreme status and nature as the supreme divinity. Birth language re:JEHOVAH Always refers to JEHOVAH'S Creative activity and the book of Hebrews does speak of a begetting in time.

Hebrews ch.5:5NKJV"So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:

“You are My Son,

TODAY  have begotten You.”"

Christ resurrection is called a begetting the resurrection is a creative act,beget when used of JEHOVAH Means create in time because all creating must happen in time only things and states  do not exists need to be created.

Nincs:The argument that Jehovah creates through preceding creations fails to address the specific role of Jesus as described in the New Testament. John 1:3 explicitly states that "all things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being," affirming Jesus as the Creator, not a created being. Colossians 1:16-17 reiterates this by stating that "by Him all things were created" and "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together," emphasizing His pre-existence and sustaining power over creation.

Me: The fact that the creation is "dia" him clearly indicates that he is NOT the creator there is not a SINGLE passage of scripture that speaks of creation as occurring "dia" JEHOVAH, if then he is not the creator then he must be part of the creation, colossians ch.1:15 clearly indicates that this is indeed the case and again we don't have to quibble as to whether this means he is the first creation or the foremost creation the two things are not mutually exclusive.

The JW argument incorrectly conflates "prototokos" with creation. While "prototokos" can denote priority, it does not necessarily imply that the one referred to is part of the created order. In biblical usage, it often signifies preeminence and authority. The use of "prototokos" in Colossians 1:15 highlights Jesus' supreme position over creation, in line with the overall biblical portrayal of His divine nature and role as Creator.

Me:JWs take note of the uniform precedent of scripture of including the prototokos in the implicit or explicit set of which he is prototokos there is not a single scriptural precedent for doing otherwise if there was you and your confederates would have produced it by now.

Nincs:John 8:54 and Acts 3:13 highlight Jesus' relationship with the Father during His earthly ministry. These passages do not contradict His divine nature but emphasize His incarnate role and submission to the Father as part of the salvific plan. You completely unfoundedly confuse the Old Testament use of the word "the Father" with the way "the Father" is used in the context of the NT, when it speaks of him in opposition to the Son.

Me: actually both John ch.8:54 and Acts ch 3:13 speak of the realitionship of the God and Father of Jesus(JEHOVAH) To the nation of Israel he is the one an only God of Israel so this has nothing to do with your incarnation and further more Acts ch.3:13 is speaking of the state of affairs after Jesus' glorification. 

And what about the spirit who was not incarnated, so the incarnation is a red herring .

Against Nincsnevem ad pluribus XII

 Nincs:The assertion that "there is no such thing" (?!) as a non-temporal emergence is nothing more than proof by assertion, and a misunderstanding of metaphysical concepts. In Christian theology, specifically Nicene Christology, the Son's begetting by the Father is understood as an eternal generation, not a temporal event. This means it is a logical, not temporal, subalternation and relationship, affirming the co-eternity of the Son with the Father. "Whatever the Son is or has, He has from the Father, and is the principle from a principle." (Council of Florence) Orthodox Christology affirms the eternal, non-temporal begetting of the Son.

Me:if the Son has always existed then logically he never emerged whether his continued existence is dependent on another is a separate issue although such depedendence would render him inferior to the one God of scripture who is totally self sustaining and is in no ones debt.

Roman's ch.11:34,35,NKJV"“For who has known the mind of the LORD?

Or who has become His counselor?”

35“Or who has first given to Him

And it shall be repaid to him?”"

It is a rhetorical question JEHOVAH is in no ones debt especially for his continued existence.

Nincs:Origen explains this as an eternal act within the Godhead:

"For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood."

"Now this expression which we employ — that there never was a time when He did not exist — is to be understood with an allowance. For these very words when or never have a meaning that relates to time, whereas the statements made regarding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence; while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages. "

Any Creed that can be accepted without logic can certainly be rejected on account of logic indeed the ones rejecting for logic sake have a better cause for rejecting,than those who accept despite a plain conflict with logic.

Emergence requires time and place preservation is not emergence, although the idea of a God that is not self-sustaining conflicts with the plain declaration of scripture re:the character of the one and only JEHOVAH the only true God.

Nincs:This affirms that the Logos (Word) existed eternally with the Father, beyond the confines of time.1 John 1:1 uses "apo archē" (from the beginning) to indicate the Logos’ existence before creation, aligning with John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word." This indicates a pre-temporal existence, not a temporal beginning. The claim that "apo archē" refers to a temporal beginning is refuted by the context of John 1:1-3, which clearly states that the Logos was with God and was God, emphasizing the eternal nature of the Word.

Me:Apo arkhe ALWAYS Means from the beginning never from eternity which would definitionally mean without beginning.

The fact that he is apo arkhe excludes his being from eternity, notice that JEHOVAH is NEVER spoken of as being "apo arkhe" because it would be absurd.

Nincs:The phrase "archē tēs ktiseōs" in Revelation 3:14 is often mistranslated in the NWT as "the beginning of the creation BY God." The correct translation, "the 'archē' of the creation OF God," indicates Christ as the source or origin of creation, not the first created being. The NWT's use of "by" instead of "of" is misleading. The Greek text does not support "hupo" (by), but rather "archē" denotes the origin or source, aligning with John 1:3 where all things were made through Him. It is also no coincidence that no one referred to Rev. 3:14 in the 4th century Arian debates, why? Because a native Greek speaker would never think of such nonsense, since all educated Greeks knew that the archē is the first principle from which creation flows, not the first piece of created things. Read this: https://justpaste.it/bv4ep

Me: I never quoted from the NWT why is it that you people are ALWAYS the First to bring up the NWT, the creation OF JEHOVAH Would logically have JEHOVAH as its source

Thus the context indicates the Jesus is starting point of JEHOVAH's Creation JEHOVAH himself being the source of that creation including Jesus which would match 

Proverbs ch.8:24,25 which shows his expressed wisdom being brought forth/begotten all the information and energy in the creation being from JEHOVAH This is a fitting analogy 

Your claim that a prophet cannot be equal to God and can be replaced overlooks the unique nature of Christ. Jesus is not just a prophet but the incarnate Word of God (John 1:14), fully divine and human.

Christ is actually superhuman having permanently sacrificed his human perfection for our sakes he has now been rewarded with superhuman perfection by his God and Father and still he acknowledges his God and Father as His superior

Revelation ch.3:12NKJV"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of MY GOD, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of MY GOD and the name of the city of MY GOD, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from MY GOD. And I will write on him My new name."

Nincs:Hebrews 1:3 states, "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being," affirming the full deity of Christ. Unlike prophets, Jesus shares the same nature as the Father, making Him indispensable and uniquely qualified as the Redeemer.

Me: more trinitarian cope a representation us never equal to the thing it represents,that is why if someone destroys your photograph they will not be charged with murder the photo is but a representation of you, it is not the reality of you, the reality is always of superior worth, note too that he is a representation of THE God (JEHOVAH) see Hebrews ch.1:1 not merely the Father,though that would be O.K because only the father is the unqualified "ho theos" in the N.T