Nincs: The term "firstborn" (πρωτότοκος, prototokos) in Colossians 1:15 refers to rank and preeminence, not temporal order. The Watchtower's own publication, "Aid to Bible Understanding," states:
Nincs"David, who was the youngest son of Jesse, was called by Jehovah the “first-born,” due to Jehovah’s elevation of David to the preeminent position in God’s chosen nation and his making a covenant with David for a dynasty of kings. (Ps. 89:27) In this position David prophetically represented the Messiah."
"Jesus Christ, as the “first-born of all creation,” always faithful to his Father Jehovah God, has the birthright through which he has been appointed “heir of all things.”—Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:2"
So they admit that "firstborn" in Col. 1:15 is understood precisely in the Old Testament sense, which indicates a position of supremacy, not simply being the first created. Biblical precedent for this usage includes Psalm 89:27, where David, though not the firstborn son of Jesse, is called "firstborn" because of his preeminence and chosen status by God. This reinforces that "firstborn" indicates a status of preeminence rather than chronological birth order. Just as David was not the firstborn but was given the title due to his preeminence, Jesus is referred to as "firstborn of all creation" to indicate his supreme status over creation, not that he was the first created being.
Me:note please that in both these first example the prototokos is the foremost member of the group of which he is prototokos,so far Mr.Nevem is of to a flying start reinforcing the Bible's uniformity regarding the MANDATORY inclusion of the prototokos in the set of which he is prototokos. Don't be distracted whether he is the first member or the foremost member is besides the point.
Nincs:Thus in Colossians 1:15, Paul uses "firstborn" in a context that emphasizes Christ's authority and supremacy over all creation, which aligns with the biblical concept of birthright denoting rannincsk and preeminence. The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prototokos) in this context reflects Christ’s sovereignty and role as the heir and ruler of all things, not a temporal creation
Not all uses of "firstborn" in the NT imply temporal priority. For instance, in Hebrews 1:6, the term "firstborn" refers to Christ being brought into the world with a status that requires worship from the angels, indicating a position of honor and authority. Revelation 1:5 refers to Jesus as "the firstborn of the dead," which signifies his preeminence in resurrection, not that he was the first to be resurrected chronologically.
The term "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 aligns with the Old Testament usage to denote rank, preeminence, and authority rather than chronological birth order. This interpretation is consistent with both biblical context and the Watchtower’s own publications. The New Testament usage of "firstborn" emphasizes Christ’s supremacy and divine role, refuting the claim that it always indicates temporal priority.
Me:actually Hebrews days that the Logos was MADE Greater than the angels in a certain respect but only after being MADE Lower than the angels in every respect.
Hebrews ch.1:4KJV"Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."
Hebrews ch.2:9KJV"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
JEHOVAH Did not inherit his rank from anyone so clearly we are not talking about an equal which only makes sense as the Bible clearly refers to the God and Father of Jesus as the MOST HIGH God therefore as having no equals on either side.
See Luke ch.1:32
When did he become firstborn here.
Hebrews ch.5:5KJV"So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, TO DAY have I BEGOTTEN thee."
At acts ch.13:33 Paul applies this to the resurrection. Is anyone going to deny that he is the firstborn member of that set both in the sense of being the first and foremost .
So the red herrings have once more failed to rescue Mr.nevem
The primary issue lies in your insistence that "prototokos" must always denote inclusion within the set, which ignores both the flexibility of the term and the broader context of Colossians 1. While it is true that "prototokos" often denotes membership in a group, such as David being called "firstborn" in Psalm 89:27, the term’s meaning is not rigidly tied to this idea. In its biblical usage, "prototokos" emphasizes rank, preeminence, and authority far more often than strict chronological or ontological inclusion within the group being described. Robert Keay, Ph.D. wrote:
ReplyDelete“the Watchtower argues that “the firstborn of” always indicates that the firstborn is part of the named group. That is, the relationship between the two terms is one involving a basic similarity and equality as parts and whole. For example, the firstborn of an animal is an animal, the firstborn of Pharaoh is part of Pharaoh’s family. The Watchtower wants the Witness to think that the firstborn of creation must be similar to and part of the creation, hence a created being. Again, this reasoning is seriously flawed. When the argument is allowed to be taken to its logical conclusion, its flaws are obvious. The phrase “firstborn of Pharaoh” cannot mean simply that the child is similar to Pharaoh as part of the Pharaoh family. If in fact the firstborn is part of Pharaoh’s family it is only because Pharaoh is the father of the firstborn. Likewise, the firstborn of an animal is a part of that animal group just because an animal is the parent of the firstborn. One cannot separate being “part of” from its actual cause: giving birth, fathering or mothering. When the Watchtower argument is now applied to Jesus as “firstborn of creation,” the fallacy is revealed. The argument becomes absurd. If Jesus is the firstborn of creation, according to the Watchtower’s reasoning, then creation is the parent of Jesus; that is, creation gives birth to Jesus. If the Watchtower argument is valid, then the Creation truly is “Mother Earth.” Even the Watchtower would not want to believe this, but the logic of their argument demands it, thus showing its absurdity. Obviously the phrase “firstborn of creation” is not being used in the fashion that the Watchtower claims. The phrases “the firstborn of” that the Witnesses cite are not analogous with Paul’s statement that Jesus is the firstborn of creation. The Apostle does not reason as does the Watchtower. But the reason the Watchtower must resort to a fallacious argument is because they fail to understand the actual usage of the term in the Old Testament. As was shown above, the “birth order” meaning of firstborn fades as the “birth right” significance takes on greater meaning, culminating in its Messianic connotations. The Watchtower’s attempts to limit the meaning to “birth order” cannot be justified.” (End qute.
In Colossians 1:15, the text explicitly states that Christ is the "image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." The Greek preposition "of" or "over" here is the genitive construction, and it is critical to note that it does not necessarily imply that Christ is part of creation. Instead, it designates his authority over creation. This interpretation is reinforced by the verses that immediately follow, which clarify that "by him all things were created" (verse 16). If Christ is the agent of creation, it logically follows that he cannot himself be a part of creation. The argument that he is the first created being contradicts this explicit declaration of his creative role.