Nincs:The term "prototokos" (firstborn) in Greek does not inherently mean "first created." It often signifies rank, preeminence, or priority in status rather than origin. Paul's use of "prototokos" in Colossians 1:15 emphasizes Jesus' supremacy and authority over all creation, indicating His preeminent status rather than suggesting He is part of the created order. The surrounding verses in Colossians 1:16-17 clarify that Jesus is the agent of creation: "For by Him all things were created... all things have been created through Him and for Him." This shows Jesus' active role as Creator, not as a part of creation. The term "prototokos" aligns with this context by highlighting Jesus' supreme authority over all creation, reinforcing His divine nature and role as Creator.
The term prototokos inherently indicates membership in the implicit or explicit set of which one is prototokos,this is even a rule ,rules have exceptions there NO(as in none whatsoever)exceptions to this uniformity in scripture, There for Jesus being the prototokos of creation MUST make him part of the creation, the fact that the creation occurs "dia" him proves that he is not the source of the creation as pointed out ad nauseum "dia" indicates instrumentality from dia we get the word diameter. Thus he us not the source of the power and wisdom in the creation it is merely being channeled through Him. Our parents play an active role in creating us but they are not considered co- creators.
Thayers re:prototokos at colossians ch.1:15
Nincs:Hebrews 1:6 refers to Jesus as the "firstborn" and clearly positions Him above all angels, emphasizing His superiority rather than His inclusion in the category of angels. The term "monogenes" means "only-begotten" or "unique," highlighting Jesus' unique relationship with the Father. This does not imply creation but signifies a unique and eternal relationship. In the New Testament, "monogenes" is used to emphasize the uniqueness and special status of Jesus as the Son of God (John 1:14, 3:16).
Actually the verse says he was MADE higher than the angels but only after his being MADE lower than the angels. Both statements are unacceptable re:JEHOVAH Who is immutable the MOST HIGH God and thus cannot be MADE higher or lower than his unchangeable supreme status and nature as the supreme divinity. Birth language re:JEHOVAH Always refers to JEHOVAH'S Creative activity and the book of Hebrews does speak of a begetting in time.
Hebrews ch.5:5NKJV"So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:
“You are My Son,
TODAY have begotten You.”"
Christ resurrection is called a begetting the resurrection is a creative act,beget when used of JEHOVAH Means create in time because all creating must happen in time only things and states do not exists need to be created.
Nincs:The argument that Jehovah creates through preceding creations fails to address the specific role of Jesus as described in the New Testament. John 1:3 explicitly states that "all things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being," affirming Jesus as the Creator, not a created being. Colossians 1:16-17 reiterates this by stating that "by Him all things were created" and "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together," emphasizing His pre-existence and sustaining power over creation.
Me: The fact that the creation is "dia" him clearly indicates that he is NOT the creator there is not a SINGLE passage of scripture that speaks of creation as occurring "dia" JEHOVAH, if then he is not the creator then he must be part of the creation, colossians ch.1:15 clearly indicates that this is indeed the case and again we don't have to quibble as to whether this means he is the first creation or the foremost creation the two things are not mutually exclusive.
The JW argument incorrectly conflates "prototokos" with creation. While "prototokos" can denote priority, it does not necessarily imply that the one referred to is part of the created order. In biblical usage, it often signifies preeminence and authority. The use of "prototokos" in Colossians 1:15 highlights Jesus' supreme position over creation, in line with the overall biblical portrayal of His divine nature and role as Creator.
Me:JWs take note of the uniform precedent of scripture of including the prototokos in the implicit or explicit set of which he is prototokos there is not a single scriptural precedent for doing otherwise if there was you and your confederates would have produced it by now.
Nincs:John 8:54 and Acts 3:13 highlight Jesus' relationship with the Father during His earthly ministry. These passages do not contradict His divine nature but emphasize His incarnate role and submission to the Father as part of the salvific plan. You completely unfoundedly confuse the Old Testament use of the word "the Father" with the way "the Father" is used in the context of the NT, when it speaks of him in opposition to the Son.
Me: actually both John ch.8:54 and Acts ch 3:13 speak of the realitionship of the God and Father of Jesus(JEHOVAH) To the nation of Israel he is the one an only God of Israel so this has nothing to do with your incarnation and further more Acts ch.3:13 is speaking of the state of affairs after Jesus' glorification.
And what about the spirit who was not incarnated, so the incarnation is a red herring .
First, regarding prototokos in Colossians 1:15, your assertion that it "inherently indicates membership in the implicit or explicit set of which one is prototokos" is an oversimplification that ignores the broader semantic range of the term. While prototokos can sometimes refer to birth order, it is often used metaphorically in Scripture to denote preeminence or rank. For instance, in Psalm 89:27, God refers to David as "My firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth." David was not the first king in history, nor even the first in his family, yet he is called prototokos to signify his supreme status. Similarly, Colossians 1:15 uses prototokos to highlight Christ’s supremacy over all creation, not to place Him within the category of created beings. This interpretation aligns with the immediate context, where verses 16-17 explicitly describe Christ as the Creator of "all things," both visible and invisible. If Christ created "all things," it is logically incoherent to argue that He Himself is part of what He created.
ReplyDeleteYour appeal to the partitive genitive argument fails to address this context adequately. While some uses of prototokos involve a partitive genitive, the genitive in Colossians 1:15 can just as easily be understood as one of relationship or subordination (e.g., "firstborn over all creation," as many translations render it). The surrounding context supports the relational or preeminent sense, particularly because Paul immediately clarifies that all things were created through Christ and for Him, emphasizing His role as the Creator and the one for whom creation exists.
Second, your interpretation of dia as indicating mere instrumentality misrepresents the Greek preposition's usage in the New Testament. While dia can signify instrumentality, it often denotes agency, particularly when paired with an active subject like Christ in passages about creation. For instance, John 1:3 states that "all things were made through (dia) Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made." The text does not imply Christ is merely a tool or intermediary; rather, it ascribes to Him an active, causative role in creation. Furthermore, Hebrews 1:2 reinforces this idea, stating that God "made the universe through (dia) the Son." The consistent use of dia in these contexts underscores Christ's active agency in creation, not a passive, subordinate role. Your claim that there is no biblical precedent for describing creation as occurring dia Jehovah is irrelevant, as the New Testament reveals Christ’s divine agency as fully consistent with His being one with the Father.
Third, your argument about Hebrews 1:6 and Jesus' exaltation misunderstands the distinction between Christ’s divine nature and His incarnate role. The references to Christ being "made lower than the angels" (Hebrews 2:9) and later exalted reflect His voluntary humility and submission in the incarnation, not a change in His divine essence. Philippians 2:6-11 elucidates this point: Christ, "being in the form of God," did not cling to His equality with God but "emptied Himself" to take on human nature. His exaltation after the resurrection signifies the glorification of His humanity, not a promotion in His divine nature, which is unchangeable and eternal. Your argument conflates Christ's incarnate role with His divine essence, leading to a misunderstanding of the text.
Fourth, your reliance on John 8:54 and Acts 3:13 to argue against Christ’s divinity ignores the broader theological context of the New Testament. John 8:58 provides a direct counterpoint, where Jesus declares, "Before Abraham was, I AM," invoking the divine name revealed in Exodus 3:14. This statement led His audience to accuse Him of blasphemy, recognizing His claim to divinity. Similarly, Acts 3:13 emphasizes Jesus' glorification by the Father but does not diminish His divine nature. The New Testament consistently portrays Jesus as distinct from the Father in person while fully sharing the divine essence (e.g., John 1:1, John 10:30, Colossians 2:9).
DeleteFinally, your interpretation of Christ's role in creation as secondary because of dia contradicts Isaiah 44:24, where Jehovah declares that He alone created all things. If Christ is truly a creature, as you suggest, then His role in creation would contradict Jehovah's exclusive claim. The only coherent explanation is that Christ shares in the divine identity, fully participating in the act of creation as God. John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, and Hebrews 1:2 affirm this conclusion, as they explicitly attribute the creation of "all things" to Christ, leaving no room for Him to be part of the created order.
https://aservantofjehovah.blogspot.com/2025/01/against-litigious-vi.html
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