Litigious:while it is true that Proverbs 8 personifies Wisdom, this does not necessitate that Wisdom is a separate entity or "offspring" in a literal sense. Personification is a poetic device frequently used in Scripture to convey abstract concepts in relatable terms. For example, in Proverbs 9:1, Wisdom is described as building a house and preparing a feast. These actions are not meant to be taken literally; they emphasize Wisdom's practical role in God's creation and guidance. Similarly, the description of Wisdom as "acquired" or "brought forth" does not imply a biological or temporal origin but rather God's eternal possession and expression of Wisdom.
Myself:this is what I mean there is NO Scriptural precedent at all for birth language being used of JEHOVAH to refer to anything eternal we know that cana is used of JEHOVAH With reference to his "acquisition" of the heavens and the earth no one argues that this must therefore mean the heavens and the earth must therefore be eternal. Every single time birth language is used of JEHOVAH It is with regard to bringing some thing into being that did not previously exist without exception, therefore referring to anything eternal as JEHOVAH'S offspring would flout the entirety of scriptural precedent JEHOVAH is not the Father of anything or anyone eternal. I base this on the ENTIRETY of scriptural precedent we note that wisdom was acquired as the beginning of JEHOVAH'S Work, by definition whatever has a beginning is not eternal
Litigious:While the BDB acknowledges that qanah *can* mean "to create" in some contexts, it does not assert that this is the only or even the most accurate meaning in Proverbs 8:22. The primary meaning of qanah in Hebrew is "to acquire" or "to possess," as seen in Genesis 14:19 and other passages. The interpretation of qanah in Proverbs 8:22 must consider the broader context of the chapter, which portrays Wisdom as eternal and integral to God's nature. Translating qanah as "create" imposes a theological bias that is not inherently present in the text.
Myself:Here is the BDB's words copied and pasted by myself"of God as originating, creating, קֹנֵה שָׁמַיִם וָאָרֶץ Genesis 14:19,22; Deuteronomy 32:6 (Israel), Psalm 139:13 (כִּלְֹיתָ֑י); Proverbs 8:22 ( חכמה q. v.)."
It quite literally gives originating or creating as the most likely meaning at Proverbs ch.8:22 not merely a possibility. The birth language is the likely reason for that. As for your claim that create us a biased, either rendering would present a bias so I'm not sure about what you are trying to say here.
We note that both the translators of the NIV and the BDBs authors are trinitarians.
Litigious:The use of "offspring" language in Proverbs 8 is metaphorical and poetic. The Hebrew word chuwl (translated as "brought forth" in verses 24–25) conveys the idea of birth or emergence but does not necessitate a literal creation event. Proverbs 8:23 explicitly states that Wisdom was established "from everlasting," which aligns more closely with the interpretation of Wisdom as eternal and uncreated. The depiction of Wisdom as "brought forth" emphasizes its intimate relationship with God and its active role in creation, not its origin as a created being.
Olam need not mean everlasting but merely what is hidden from human estimation. You have to ignore the totality of scriptural precedent to deem something emergent as eternal there is no eternal emergence in scripture,the totality of precedent tells us that that all of JEHOVAH'S "offspring" are finite. As logic would demand infinite and emergent are mutually exclusive qualities.
See psalm ch.90:2 there is always an eternity of time passing before whatever JEHOVAH Brings forth ,gives birth to,begets I the weight of the entirety of scriptural precedent behind my position and you have extra biblical ,pagan really philosophical speculation backing up your position. I know that you don't accord the Bible the same authority I do and that is going to continue to be a problem going forward.
Litigious:translation choices of the NIV, or any translation for that matter, do not serve as definitive proof of a particular interpretation. Genesis 14:19 uses qanah to describe God as the "Possessor of heaven and earth," which aligns with the primary meaning of qanah as "to acquire" or "to possess." Translating qanah as "create" in this context is less accurate because the focus of the passage is on God's sovereignty and ownership, not the act of creation. Furthermore, the consistency of qanah's meaning across other biblical passages strongly favors "possess" or "acquire" rather than "create."
Myself:As we have seen the BDB and the translators of the septuagint agree with the translators of the NIV" Who likely have forgotten more than either of us would ever know on the subject biblical Hebrew and its accurate rendering into English,the birth language used at both Proverbs ch.8 and Psalm 139 is probably why the highly qualified author's of the BDB ,the Septuagint, and the NIV rendered cana as create here in view of the universal practice of the bible writer's of using birth language to refer to JEHOVAH'S Creative activity.
Litigious:the use of chuwl in verses 24–25 does not imply a temporal creation event. Instead, it is part of the poetic imagery used to personify Wisdom. The phrase "brought forth" emphasizes Wisdom's integral role in God's creative activity, not its origin as a created being. Additionally, the description of Wisdom as existing "from everlasting" (verse 23) underscores its eternal nature, which is incompatible with the idea of Wisdom being created at a specific point in time.
Your argument by assertion and circular logic continues to fail remember you are not dealing with an audience that accepts you as any kind of authority, JEHOVAH'S eternal Wisdom was never brought forth . Olam need not mean eternity only beyond human estimation, there is scriptural precedent for considering olam as inestimably ancient there is no scriptural precedent for any eternal emergence or begetting.
See Exodus ch.21:6 for instance do you want to take olam as forever here as well.
Litigious:is true that some early Church Fathers, including Origen, interpreted Wisdom in Proverbs 8 as a reference to Christ. However, their understanding of Christ as the Logos (Word) was rooted in the belief that Christ is eternal and uncreated, fully divine and consubstantial with the Father. Origen himself affirmed the eternal generation of the Son, which is distinct from the concept of creation. To equate Christ, as divine Wisdom, with a created being misrepresents both the intent of the Church Fathers and the broader biblical witness.
My main point here was that a) Wisdom is distinct person not an abstraction, b) Wisdom was generated by JEHOVAH. With all due respect to Origen the scriptures do not speak of any eternal generation, and we know that a begetting in time in no way disqualified Christ from being whatever he needs to be to serve as our intercessor.
Acts ch.13:33NIV"he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
“ ‘You are my son;
TODAY I have become your father.’ "
