The throne of JEHOVAH'S Son demystified II

   

Another consideration is that later Church copyists would often change the wording of a scripture if it seemed to contradict a teaching of the Roman Church.[1] Therefore, if the wording of an ancient manuscript seems to contradict a later teaching of the Roman Church, it is more likely to have the original wording than another ancient manuscript which (at the same verse) seems to agree with that Church teaching.

Using these criteria, the UBS Committee unanimously agreed with all the wording of Heb. 1:8 except for one word. They agreed that the original writing of Heb. 1:8 should read literally (in the NT Greek): “toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age and the staff of the straightness staff of the kingdom [‘of him’ or ‘of you’].”

It was the very last word of Heb. 1:8 that caused a “considerable degree of doubt” among those textual scholars. This very last word was either the NT Greek word sou (translated into English as “of you” or “your”) or autou (translated “of him” or “his”).

Why is it so important? Because these trinitarian scholars agreed that if autou (“his”) were used here by the author of Hebrews 1:8, then the verse “must be” translated “God is thy throne” and not “thy throne, O God”!! If, however, sou (“your”) was the original wording, then it could be translated either way. Obviously, then, a trinitarian would strongly prefer the reading of sou. [See end note 4]

In discussing this problem the UBS Committee noted that all the very oldest and best manuscripts (p46 - circa 200 A.D.; 'Aleph' - 4th century; and B - 4th century) all agree that the original wording was “his (autou) kingdom.” 

They also noted that later manuscripts which read “your (sou) kingdom” are now in agreement with the corresponding passage in the Greek OT Septuagint! (Remember that the UBS Committee recognizes, as do most Bible scholars, that the NT manuscript that differs slightly from the Septuagint is more likely to be correct than another one which perfectly agrees because copyists strongly tended to deliberately “correct” Septuagint quotes they found in the NT .) 

Furthermore, since autou is not repeated near the word in question in this NT manuscript quote of Ps. 45:6, 7, but sou is repeated, before and after, it would have been easy for a copyist to have inadvertently miscopied sou here. Autou, then, is more likely to have been original than sou for more than one reason.

It is also important to realize that all the oldest manuscripts (which were probably written before the full trinity doctrine was officially declared by the Roman Church in 381 A. D. and certainly written well before it was popularly accepted through the efforts of such men as Augustine in the early 5th century) use the word autou which will not properly allow for the trinitarian-preferred interpretation. Whereas many of the later manuscripts now use the word sou which will allow for the trinitarian-preferred interpretation of Heb. 1:8.

Isn’t it significant that the very earliest manuscript to use the trinitarian-preferred sou is Manuscript A from the 5th century which is shortly after the trinity doctrine was fully and officially declared at the Council of Constantinople in 381 A. D. and during the highly successful efforts of Augustine and others to defend and popularize this newly established “truth” of the Roman Church? (Remember the correlation between new church doctrines and changes in later manuscripts.) - See the HIST study paper. 

So even though there is overwhelming evidence that “his” (autou) was in the original manuscript of Hebrews 1:8 (even the trinitarian scholars who developed the Westcott and Hort text and the Nestle text use autou at Heb. 1:8), the UBS Committee finally agreed to choose “your” (sou) and label that choice as “having considerable degree of doubt,” anyway! 

Why did they bend their own rules of evidence? Because (1) they said there were so many later manuscripts that used sou, and (2) they admitted that they didn’t like what that verse actually said if autou had really been used in the original!

Oh, they did soften the arbitrariness of their choice slightly by labeling it as “having considerable degree of doubt,” but if any honest impartial scholar will examine their own comments on the evidence, he must agree that the UBS Committee’s choice is purely an emotional one and the evidence rules otherwise (as other trinitarian texts noted above admit).

Sou not only has “considerable degree of doubt,” it is nearly impossible. The UBS Committee’s own comments on the evidence make autou virtually certain as the original word, and, therefore, in the committee’s own word’s, Hebrews 1:8 “must be” translated “God is thy throne” and not “thy throne, O God.” - (study pp. 662-663 in A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, United Bible Societies, 1971.) 

It might be worthwhile to see that that same UBS textual committee said (p. 522) when discussing Romans 9:5: 

“In fact, on the basis of the general tenor of his theology it was tantamount to impossible that Paul would have expressed Christ’s greatness by calling him God blessed for ever.” And, “Nowhere else in his genuine epistles does Paul ever designate [‘the Christ’] as theos [‘God’ or ‘god’].”

So, for those of us who believe that Paul wrote the Bible book of Hebrews, the UBS committee provides yet another reason why Heb. 1:8 must be translated “God is your throne” not “your throne, O God.” (But don’t forget that some scholars don’t consider Paul to be the author of Hebrews even though they may still consider Hebrews to be inspired scripture.) 

Some trinitarians have objected that “it does not make sense [or even, ‘it’s ridiculous’] to call God a ‘throne.’”[2] However, to any serious Bible student, it is entirely reasonable and appropriate. Calling God “the throne of Jesus” is an excellent figurative way to show that God approves and upholds Christ’s kingly reign (as in Westcott’s comment previously quoted).

Is God ever called “unlikely” things in a figurative sense that are as equally “ridiculous” as calling him “a throne”? Every Bible student of any experience knows that He is, repeatedly!

Many times he is called someone’s “Rock” (e.g., Ps. 78:35). 

He is called a “fortress” (e.g., Ps. 91:2). 

He is called a “lamp” in 2 Samuel 22:29. 

He is called a “crown” (“in that day will Jehovah of hosts become a crown of glory, unto the 

residue of his people” - Is. 28:5, ASV). 

Jehovah is called “our dwelling place” - Ps. 90:1, KJV. 

And “Jehovah is my ... song” - Ps. 118:14. 

Also notice Ps. 60:7, 8 “Ephraim is my helmet, Judah my scepter, Moab is my washbasin”, NIV. And in Is. 22:23 we find Eliakim, whom Jehovah said he would call and commit authority to (Is. 22:20, 21), called a “throne” (“and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house,” RSV). 

Not only is it made very clear by many trinitarian translators [3] and text writers [4] themselves that Heb. 1:8 may be honestly translated “God is your throne,” but all real evidence shows that it should be so translated!

So we find once more that Jesus cannot possibly be God. Just as we saw in the case of the Israelite king in Ps. 45:6, 7, if God is his throne (the one supporting him - giving him power and authority), then he cannot be that God!

............................................................................

NOTES

1. An example of this is the omission of the words “nor the son” in the majority of manuscripts at Matt. 24:36. However, the two oldest and best manuscripts, Aleph and B (as well as Manuscript A of the 5th century), do have “nor the son” after the word “heaven” (as it is in Mark 13:32). Bible scholars have come to the conclusion that the words were first omitted by a copyist sometime shortly after the development of the trinity doctrine by the Roman Church in the 4th century (see the HIST study) because it seemed to contradict the trinity doctrine: Jesus as equal to the Father. - See A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, p. 62, United Bible Societies, 1971. Also see The Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Alexandrinus, published by the trustees of the British Museum (quoted in the Feb. 1, 1984 WT, p. 7) or see the Manuscripts at . http://www.codex-sinaiticus.net/en/ and http://www.csntm.org/Manuscript/View/GA_02 and http://www.csntm.org/Manuscript/View/GA_03 

2. Bowman, in his Why You Should Believe in the Trinity, after explaining that Heb. 1:1-6 describes the Son as in essence God, says:

It should come as no surprise, then, that in verse 8 God the Father says “of the Son, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever...’” (translating literally). 

To circumvent this plain statement, the NWT renders verse 8 as “God is your throne forever and ever....” On merely grammatical considerations, this translation is possible, and some biblical scholars have favored this rendering. According to such a reading, the point of the statement is then that God is the source of Jesus’ authority. 

However, this seems to be an unusual, if not completely odd, way of making that point. In Scripture a “throne” is not the source of one’s authority, but the position or place from which one rules. Thus, heaven is called “the throne of God” (Matt. 5:34). Surely God does not derive his authority from heaven, or from anyone or anything! But, even assuming that “God is your throne” would be understood as having that meaning, in context this makes no sense. The writer of Hebrews is quoting Psalm 45:6 and applying it to the Son to show that the Son is far greater than any of the angels. However, if all this verse means is that the Son’s authority derives from God, this in no way makes him unique or greater than the angels, since this could be said of any of God’s obedient angels. - pp. 106-107, Baker Book House, 1991 ed. 

To take things in the order Bowman states them, 

(A) his “literal” translation of Heb. 1:8 is certainly not literal. As we saw at the beginning of this paper, the actual NT Greek literally says “the throne of you the god into the age of the age.” The understood verb “is” may be inserted anywhere in the sentence, but it is not literally in the original manuscript, and to insist that it must be inserted and interpreted as Bowman has done is simply (literally) untrue! In fact it seems much more probable, whether one inserts it before or after “the god,” to mean: ‘the throne of you IS the God into the age of the age.’ (Although it is less likely, it is possible that ho theos could be considered a vocative [‘O God’] - but see trinitarian Dr. Westcott’s quote above). But, at any rate, Bowman is not being truthful when he says he is “translating literally” as ‘your throne, O God, is forever and ever...’! 

Posted by Elijah Daniels 

Their kingdom is very much a part of this world.

 "Pope Pius XII, in particular, had failed to condemn the Final Solution, though he knew of it."

Paul Johnson, History of the Jews

"How could the Christian Church, apparently quite willingly, accommodate this weird megalomaniac [Constantine] in it's theocratic system? Was there a conscious bargain? Which side benefited most form this unseemly marriage between church and state? Or, to put it another way, did the empire surrender to Christianity, or did Christianity prostitute itself to the empire? It is characteristic of the complexities of early Christian history that we cannot give a definite answer to this question."

Paul Johnson, A History of Christianity

Tags: christianity, history

"Jesus answered, “My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world.”"

John chapter 18 verse 36 New Living translation 

We continue our pursuit of straight answers from trintarians.

 AservantofJEHOVAH:

"Is it compatible with trinitarian orthodoxy to claim that Jesus of Nazareth is the MOST High God?"

Our Lord and Savior is a biblicist.

 John ch.17:17KJV"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

John ch.5:39KJV"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

John Ch.5:45KJV"“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set."

Luke Ch.16:29-31KJV"Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Luke Ch.24:32KJV"And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"

The true Spirit of JEHOVAH causes reverence for and clear understanding of JEHOVAH'S Word the Holy Bible,any Spirit exalting tradition over JEHOVAH'S Word or promoting irrational exegesis of same is of a different source.

For the defence

     An unabridged excerpt of Bill davidson's article in the Nov.2nd 1946 edition of Collier's Entitled:Jehovah's travelling salesmen:P.75  

"because of the obviously huge income from the millions of publications every year the board of directors have often been accused of using Jehovah's Witnesses as a personal racket. 

There is no evidence to support these charges.The leaders actually live in lower middle class simplicity,and the first president of the Society,Charles Taze Russel,left exactly $200 in his will when he died in 1916.He had been the owner of a chain of haberdashery stores and a very wealthy man at one time.The same thing is true of Judge Joseph F.Rutherford,the second president.A few years ago,Roger baldwin of the American civil liberties union became one of the few men outside of the board of directors to get some official notion of the organisations finances.Baldwin is convinced that the million dollar profit of that particular year was almost completely eaten up by foreign publication losses,administration expenses and the tremendous legal expenses necessary to defend the witnesses in courtrooms."

Page 4 paragraph 1 Watchtower society's charter."It does not contemplate pecuniary gain or profit,incidentally or otherwise,to its members,directors or officers.Its members shall be only men who are mature,active and faithful witnesses of Jehovah devoting full time to performance of one or more of its chartered purposes under its direction and by its authority,or such men who are devoting part time as active presiding ministers or servants of congregations of Jehovah's witnesses."

Against nincsnevem ad pluribus XVII.

 

Nincs:Your argument appears to misunderstand both the nature of God’s foreknowledge and the theological position held by many Christian traditions regarding free will and predestination.

Me:My argument is that if God has foreknown the infinite future exhaustively From the infinite past the only LOGICAL conclusion is that the infinite future has been foredetermined from the infinite past, and that if JEHOVAH is the true first and sole cause of this exhaustively foredetermined universal creation it is he who has either actively or passively exhaustively foredetermined the future, so before JEHOVAH Creates the unrepentant murderer he knows from the infinite past that he will murder unrepentantly, of course this event is foredetermined nothing else but this can happen. but the only way it can happen is if JEHOVAH CHOOSES to give the remorseless murderer a body and a mind and access to the weapons and knowledge the remorseless murderer would need to commit his crime . JEHOVAH Can choose to deny the remorseless murderer what he needs to commit his crime, he chose otherwise.

Either JEHOVAH is incapable of creating our hypothetical remorseless murderer in a way that gives him a genuine moral choice . Or he can create him with a genuine choice re: his moral development and chose not to. So this is about basic logic . As you will see Mr.nincsnevem responds in typical fashion not by demonstrating any inconsistency in my logic but by parotting the party line in his typically circular style of argumentation. 

Nincs:Firstly, it’s important to clarify that God’s foreknowledge and human foreknowledge are indeed different, but this does not negate the possibility of God knowing the future without determining it. Christian theology traditionally teaches that God, being outside of time, sees all events—past, present, and future—simultaneously. This does not mean that God determines every action that will occur; rather, it means that God knows the choices that free creatures will make. God’s knowledge is comprehensive and perfect, but it does not override or negate human free will.

Me : JEHOVAH is the first and most consequential cause of all events in the creation he is no mere passive observer of the future he creates the future actively or passively,any event JEHOVAH Foreknows he has the power to actively or passively alter,so he can foreknow several outcomes to the same chain of events, the example of the sun's rising in the east was made JEHOVAH Can easily arrange to have the sun rise in the west or any other direction or not at all habakkuk ch.3:11,

To argue then that JEHOVAH Does not have the might and wisdom to make certain aspects of the future undetermined or to alter his own previous determinations of said future is to misunderstand the scriptures true position re:JEHOVAH'S Sovereignty over his creation.

Amos ch.7:1-6NIV"This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: He was preparing swarms of locusts after the king’s share had been harvested and just as the late crops were coming up. 2When they had stripped the land clean, I cried out, “Sovereign LORD, forgive! How can Jacob survive? He is so small!”

3So the LORD relented.

“This will not happen,” the LORD said.

4This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: The Sovereign LORD s calling for judgment by fire; it dried up the great deep and devoured the land. 5Then I cried out, “Sovereign LORD, I beg you, stop! How can Jacob survive? He is so small!”

6So the LORD relented.

“This will not happen either,” the Sovereign LORD said..

4This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: The Sovereign LORD was calling for judgment by fire; it dried up the great deep and devoured the land. 5Then I cried out, “Sovereign LORD, I beg you, stop! How can Jacob survive? He is so small!”

6So the LORD relented.

“This will not happen either,” the Sovereign LORD said."

JEHOVAH as the source of all the energy and information in the creation causes the future not an exhaustively predetermined future but he uses his Sovereign power to safeguard our freewill

Nincs:You mention that because the future is not fully foredetermined, it cannot be precisely foreknown. However, this claim assumes that for something to be known, it must be determined. This is not the case, especially when considering the nature of God. God's knowledge is not contingent on causality in the way human knowledge is. God’s knowledge is complete and eternal, meaning that He knows the outcomes of all free decisions without needing to cause them. This understanding preserves both the sovereignty of God and the genuine freedom of human beings.

Me:It's basic logic every contingent event/occurrence has a chain of causes that precedes it JEHOVAH Being the first cause and the source of all the information an energy in the creation. So if an outcome is inevitable the chain of causes leading up to it logically has already begun . If it was inevitable from prior to the creation then the creator himself must be included in that chain of causes he being the first cause, and bearing in mind he has the power to alter outcomes,

The only way to preserve human freedom is for morally consequential outcomes to not be inevitable from eternity,

Nincs:Regarding your assertion that Christendom posits an "apology for free will" that is "really no free will at all," this seems to be a misunderstanding of what Christian theologians, especially within Catholic and many Protestant traditions, actually teach. The doctrine of predestination, as understood in these traditions, does not imply absolute determinism. For example, the Catholic Church teaches that God predestines no one to damnation and that human beings are fully capable of making free choices that have real moral significance. The Council of Trent, for example, affirmed the reality of human free will while also upholding the necessity of divine grace.

A vain attempt to reconcile what is logically irreconcilable if an outcome is inevitable prior to my existence ,logically I have no choice, the chain of causes that rendered the outcome inevitable preceded my existence JEHOVAH would have chosen to not mitigate the chain of causes that made the outcome inevitable and thus would be culpable as the first cause in my failure.

Nincs:Your critique of "absolute predeterminism" as absurd is addressing a straw man rather than the actual beliefs of most Christian traditions. Absolute predeterminism, where all events are caused by God in a way that negates human freedom, is not a position held by mainstream Christianity. Instead, what is often taught is that God's foreknowledge includes a divine plan where human freedom plays a real and vital role. This is not absurdity but a sophisticated understanding of how divine omniscience and human freedom coexist.

Me: it is your lack of rationality that is the problem whatever outcomes that JEHOVAH foreknows are inevitable every outcome has a chain of causes preceding it if an outcome is inevitable the chain of causes leading up to it has already begun that is just the way causality and contingency works. JEHOVAH Has the power to mitigate secondary causes and alter outcomes if he chooses not to then he bears some responsibility for the outcome. So your claim that the totality of the future is foreknown is the same as saying every decision and outcome is inevitable,which is the same as saying that there is no freewill.

Nincs:Finally, your point about true moral excellence being impossible under the doctrine of predeterminism is based on a misunderstanding. In Christian thought, moral excellence is possible precisely because humans have the freedom to choose between good and evil, even within the scope of God’s omniscient knowledge. God's foreknowledge does not constrain human freedom; rather, it encompasses it, allowing for the genuine exercise of free will and moral responsibility.

Me: JEHOVAH'S Omniscience is not the issue He has the might and the right to create a universe that leaves morally consequential choices undetermined hence not inevitable if our decisions were inevitable from eternity there is no freewill and all of your circular arguments will not make it otherwise.

Nincs:In summary, the notion that God’s foreknowledge negates human free will is a misconception. Traditional Christian doctrine affirms that God’s omniscience and human freedom are compatible, and that God’s foreknowledge does not equate to predetermination. This balance between divine knowledge and human free will is what allows for true moral agency and the potential for moral excellence.

Me:it is simply logical that once an outcome is accurately foreknown it is inevitable from that point if this inevitability precedes the existence of the agent the agent cannot rightly be held responsible for the outcome. Basic logic. 

The search for straight answers from trinitarians continues.

 Matthew ch.4:10NIV"Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the LORD your God, and serve him ONLY.’”"

Would rendering sacred service to Jesus alone be sufficient to be in compliance with this command?

If so, would serving either the Father or spirit then be a violation of this command?

Would serving either the Son or Father or Spirit alone be sufficient to be compliant with this instruction?

 If so , having begun serving a particular member of the Trinity would switching allegiance to another member be considered a violation of Matthew ch.4:10,

Would serving the Trinity as a whole alone be enough to obey this command?

If so ,would serving any member of the Trinity be a violation of this command?

Still seeking straight answers from trinitarians.

 John ch.17:5NKJV"And now, O Father, glorify Me together [b]with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

Did the God and Father of Jesus Christ grant his Son's request?

Against nincsnevem ad pluribus XV

Nincs:In Revelation 3:14, "arkhe" can indeed mean "beginning," but it should not be understood in the modern English way, but as "principle", hint: the English "principle" is a Latin loanword, Latin principium, which is how the Vulgate translates it in Rev. 3:14, as well as John 1:1a tc. The NT's usage in other contexts emphasizes a role of preeminence and authority, aligning with the interpretation of Christ as the "first principle" or "originator" of creation. By the way, according to the modern consensus, the author of Revelation is not the same John as the one who wrote the Gospel or the three Johannine epistles.

me:Arkhe is used with regard to the Logos in the sense of beginning 

1John ch.1:1NKJV"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— "

As for your claim that the consensus asserts that a different John wrote Revelation. The argument by assertion fails regardless of numbers. There is no such consensus.

Compare John ch.1:1, Revelation 19:13,1John ch.1:1

The entire Bible is the single work of the one divine author.

He is the beginning of JEHOVAH'S Creation the one he only two verses earlier ,see Revelation ch.3:12, identifies as MY GOD, and not his own creation. Therefore in view of the context he is clearly not the source of the creation.

At proverbs ch.8:22 we see that JEHOVAH'S wisdom expressed His Logos is cana/begotten

See Genesis ch.4:1 for another example of cana as birth language, as the beginning of his work 

Proverbs ch.8:24,25NKJV"When there were no depths I was brought forth,

When there were no fountains abounding with water.

25Before the mountains were settled,

Before the hills, I was brought forth;"

Birth language is used of JEHOVAH To denote his creative work even of the inanimate creation. See psalms ch.90:2.

Obviously his being the first creation and his being the greatest creation are not mutually exclusive indeed the one would make the other more likely.

Nincs:The verb "ktizo" indeed allows for a double accusative construction, changing the emphasis from a mere creation to a designation of role, i.e., to make someone something (e.g., make him "arkhe" or "reshit"). This nuanced understanding supports the interpretation of Wisdom’s foundational role rather than a literal creation event. This is a critical distinction often overlooked in simpler translations.

Me:Again the two things are not mutually exclusive what is off the table is anyone creating "dia" JEHOVAH The Bible makes it clear that he is the ultimate source of the creation we know that he uses prior creations as instruments and or raw materials later creations this does not make these prior creations co-creators because ALL of the information and energy in them and through them is from him JEHOVAH Created the foundations of both the physical and superphysical creation.

Nincs:Isaiah 44:24 explicitly states that Yahweh alone created the heavens and the earth, which inherently excludes any secondary deities or entities from this creative role. This monotheistic assertion aligns with the broader scriptural narrative, emphasizing Yahweh's sole sovereignty in creation.

    Me:this falsifies a creation dia an uncreated mediator as such would be a supplement but not JEHOVAH'S Standard procedure of creating later creations with prior ones as a instruments and or raw materials as no creature would be a supplement to JEHOVAH'S Power or wisdom.

    So any mediator must be a creation.

Hence this mediator is called the prototokos of creation see colossians ch.1:15 the term prototokos always denotes inclusion in the set of which he is prototokos, whether literally or figuratively there literally no exceptions o this uniformity. The fact that all we ever get from the other side is either crickets or red herrings when we ask them to produce an exception is compelling evidence in itself but please feel free to get a concordance and check for yourself.

   

Nincs:https://www.catholiccrossreference.online/fathers/index.php/Isaiah%2044:24

Look at what the church fathers write, there is no sign that they exclude "only" pagan gods, not alleged demiurges, angels, etc.

Me:The demiurge is uncreated so bears closer resemblance to christendom's version of the Logos so basically you are arguing with yourself the scriptures show that it is standard procedure for JEHOVAH create "dia" prior creations

Genesis ch.6:7NNKJV"7So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” "

Of course none of the human or subhuman creatures then existing were created directly by JEHOVAH Yet he could be justly credited with their existence as all the information an energy that made them what they were came out of him.

Nincs:Tertullian argues against Hermogenes' view that matter is eternal and co-existent with God. He emphasizes that God alone is the Creator who "stretched out the heavens alone" (Isaiah 44:24), countering any notion that matter or any other entity shares this creative power. Tertullian addresses the unity of God and the distinction between the Father and the Son. He affirms that while God says He stretched out the heavens alone, this does not exclude the Son but rather includes Him in the divine act of creation, emphasizing the Son's unity with the Father.

 Me:Red herring alert the God and Father of Jesus is plainly declared to be the One God of Israel by Jesus himself see John ch.8:54 again this is re:the relationship of the God and Father of Jesus with the nation of Israel see also Luke 1:32 where the God and Father of Jesus us called the MOST HIGH God . Thus excluding ALL others including the unincarnated spirit from the category of MOST HIGH God.

 Thus when the God of Israel, the most high God declares that it was his power and wisdom ALONE that are to be credited for the existence of the creation all save the God and of Jesus are excluded.

Nincs:Athanasius explains that when Scripture says God created alone, it implicitly includes the Son. He stresses that the Son, being the Word of God, was present and active in creation, thus maintaining the unity and co-eternity of the Son with the Father. He argues against Arianism by highlighting that God declaring "I alone" in creation includes the Son as the Word through whom all things were made. This assertion upholds the Son’s divinity and eternal nature, countering the Arian view of the Son as a created being.

Me: actually the scriptures explicitly name the GOD and Father of Jesus as the MOST HIGH GOD : Luke ch.1:32NKJV"He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the LORD God will give Him the throne of His father David."

Clearly excluding Son and Spirit from the category of MOST HIGH GOD 

     John Ch.10:30NKJV"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than ALL(Not most); and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. "

Clearly excluding Son and Spirit from the category of the MOST HIGH GOD

John ch.17:3NKJV"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

 Clearly excluding Son and Spirit from the category of only true God.

  1Corinthians ch.8:6NKJV"yet for us there is ONE GOD, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live"

Clearly excluding Son and Spirit from the category of God who is the source of all the power and wisdom in the creation, while excluding the MOST HIGH GOD JEHOVAH from the category of Lord "dia" whom JEHOVAH'S Power is channeled so a double whammy against trinitarian absurdity.

    Matthew ch.16:16NKJV"Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of THE living God.”"

Clearly excluding the Son and the spirit from the category of self sustaining God.

John ch.6:57NKJV"As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. "

Note the spirit is nor even mentioned and clearly the Son is not self sustaining like the MOST HIGH GOD JEHOVAH is,  self-existence along with supremacy are attributes of the MOST HIGH GOD Any without these attributes are clearly not the JEHOVAH of the Bible.

Matthew ch.24:36NKJV"“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father ONLY. "

Clearly excluding the Son and Spirit from the category of omniscient God.

Ephesians ch.4:6NKJV"one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in [c]you all."

Clearly excluding the Son and Spirit from the category of the supreme God

This why the unqualified "ho theos" is used exclusively of the God and Father of Jesus also while the expression (The)God the Father is common in the N.T the expression God the son or God the spirit are TOTALLY absent. The monarchy of the God and Father Jesus the Lord JEHOVAH is plainly declared O.T and N.T alike.

Nincs:Ambrose discusses the concept of God working alone in creation. He states that this "alone" includes the Son, who is described in Proverbs 8:30 as being with the Father during creation. This interpretation aligns with the understanding of the Trinity, where the Son is co-eternal and consubstantial with the Father. 

Me:I thought the wisdom here in proverbs ch.822-30 was merely an abstract quality and not a living person. If we go back we verse24,25 we see that this one was brought forth by JEHOVAH in line with Jesus declaration at John ch.6:57 . So clearly is not JEHOVAH Who is no ones Son but everyone's Father. Being creation he cannot be regarded as a supplement to JEHOVAH'S Power and wisdom any more than the parents who played a very active role in our creation by JEHOVAH.

Against nincsnevem ad pluribus XIV

Nincs: The term "firstborn" (πρωτότοκος, prototokos) in Colossians 1:15 refers to rank and preeminence, not temporal order. The Watchtower's own publication, "Aid to Bible Understanding," states:

Me:Red herring alert the prototokos is ALWAYS a member of the set ALWAYS ,the first member ,the foremost member ,both the first and the foremost member because obviously these two categories are not mutually exclusive so that establishing that the prototokos belongs to the one category does not exclude his simultaneously being of the other category.

Mr. Nevems inability to provide a single falsification of this uniformity as we will all see pretty much seals the deal.

Nincs"David, who was the youngest son of Jesse, was called by Jehovah the “first-born,” due to Jehovah’s elevation of David to the preeminent position in God’s chosen nation and his making a covenant with David for a dynasty of kings. (Ps. 89:27) In this position David prophetically represented the Messiah."

"Jesus Christ, as the “first-born of all creation,” always faithful to his Father Jehovah God, has the birthright through which he has been appointed “heir of all things.”—Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:2"

So they admit that "firstborn" in Col. 1:15 is understood precisely in the Old Testament sense, which indicates a position of supremacy, not simply being the first created. Biblical precedent for this usage includes Psalm 89:27, where David, though not the firstborn son of Jesse, is called "firstborn" because of his preeminence and chosen status by God. This reinforces that "firstborn" indicates a status of preeminence rather than chronological birth order. Just as David was not the firstborn but was given the title due to his preeminence, Jesus is referred to as "firstborn of all creation" to indicate his supreme status over creation, not that he was the first created being.

Me:note please that in both these first example the prototokos is the foremost member of the group of which he is prototokos,so far Mr.Nevem is of to a flying start reinforcing the Bible's uniformity regarding the MANDATORY inclusion of the prototokos in the set of which he is prototokos. Don't be distracted whether he is the first member or the foremost member is besides the point.

Nincs:Thus in Colossians 1:15, Paul uses "firstborn" in a context that emphasizes Christ's authority and supremacy over all creation, which aligns with the biblical concept of birthright denoting rannincsk and preeminence. The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prototokos) in this context reflects Christ’s sovereignty and role as the heir and ruler of all things, not a temporal creation

Not all uses of "firstborn" in the NT imply temporal priority. For instance, in Hebrews 1:6, the term "firstborn" refers to Christ being brought into the world with a status that requires worship from the angels, indicating a position of honor and authority. Revelation 1:5 refers to Jesus as "the firstborn of the dead," which signifies his preeminence in resurrection, not that he was the first to be resurrected chronologically.

The term "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 aligns with the Old Testament usage to denote rank, preeminence, and authority rather than chronological birth order. This interpretation is consistent with both biblical context and the Watchtower’s own publications. The New Testament usage of "firstborn" emphasizes Christ’s supremacy and divine role, refuting the claim that it always indicates temporal priority.

Me:actually Hebrews days that the Logos was MADE Greater than the angels in a certain respect but only after being MADE Lower than the angels in every respect.

Hebrews ch.1:4KJV"Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."

Hebrews ch.2:9KJV"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

JEHOVAH Did not inherit his rank from anyone so clearly we are not talking about an equal which only makes sense as the Bible clearly refers to the God and Father of Jesus as the MOST HIGH God therefore as having no equals on either side. 

See Luke ch.1:32

When did he become firstborn here.

Hebrews ch.5:5KJV"So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, TO DAY have I BEGOTTEN thee."

At acts ch.13:33 Paul applies this to the resurrection. Is anyone going to deny that he is the firstborn member of that set both in the sense of being the first and foremost .

So the red herrings have once more failed to rescue Mr.nevem

Against nincsnevem ad pluribus XIII

 Nincs:The term "prototokos" (firstborn) in Greek does not inherently mean "first created." It often signifies rank, preeminence, or priority in status rather than origin. Paul's use of "prototokos" in Colossians 1:15 emphasizes Jesus' supremacy and authority over all creation, indicating His preeminent status rather than suggesting He is part of the created order. The surrounding verses in Colossians 1:16-17 clarify that Jesus is the agent of creation: "For by Him all things were created... all things have been created through Him and for Him." This shows Jesus' active role as Creator, not as a part of creation. The term "prototokos" aligns with this context by highlighting Jesus' supreme authority over all creation, reinforcing His divine nature and role as Creator.

The term prototokos inherently indicates membership in the implicit or explicit set of which one is prototokos,this is even a rule ,rules have exceptions there NO(as in none whatsoever)exceptions to this uniformity in scripture, There for Jesus being the prototokos of creation MUST make him part of the creation, the fact that the creation occurs "dia" him proves that he is not the source of the creation as pointed out ad nauseum "dia" indicates instrumentality from dia we get the word diameter. Thus he us not the source of the power and wisdom in the creation it is merely being channeled through Him. Our parents play an active role in creating us but they are not considered co- creators.

Thayers re:prototokos at colossians ch.1:15

tropically Christ is called πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως (partitive genitive (see below), as in τά πρωτότοκα τῶν προβάτων, Genesis 4:4; τῶν βοῶν, Deuteronomy 12:17; τῶν υἱῶν σου, Exodus 22:29), who came into being through God prior to the entire universe of created things (R. V. the firstborn of all creation) (see κτίσις, 2 b.), 

Note the admission that this is in fact a patitive genitive a natural reading minus trinitarian mental gymnastics puts him among the creation his being the foremost creation would still mean that he is a creation.

Nincs:Hebrews 1:6 refers to Jesus as the "firstborn" and clearly positions Him above all angels, emphasizing His superiority rather than His inclusion in the category of angels. The term "monogenes" means "only-begotten" or "unique," highlighting Jesus' unique relationship with the Father. This does not imply creation but signifies a unique and eternal relationship. In the New Testament, "monogenes" is used to emphasize the uniqueness and special status of Jesus as the Son of God (John 1:14, 3:16).

Actually the verse says he was MADE higher than the angels but only after his being MADE lower than the angels. Both statements are unacceptable re:JEHOVAH Who is immutable the MOST HIGH God and thus cannot be MADE higher or lower than his unchangeable supreme status and nature as the supreme divinity. Birth language re:JEHOVAH Always refers to JEHOVAH'S Creative activity and the book of Hebrews does speak of a begetting in time.

Hebrews ch.5:5NKJV"So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:

“You are My Son,

TODAY  have begotten You.”"

Christ resurrection is called a begetting the resurrection is a creative act,beget when used of JEHOVAH Means create in time because all creating must happen in time only things and states  do not exists need to be created.

Nincs:The argument that Jehovah creates through preceding creations fails to address the specific role of Jesus as described in the New Testament. John 1:3 explicitly states that "all things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being," affirming Jesus as the Creator, not a created being. Colossians 1:16-17 reiterates this by stating that "by Him all things were created" and "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together," emphasizing His pre-existence and sustaining power over creation.

Me: The fact that the creation is "dia" him clearly indicates that he is NOT the creator there is not a SINGLE passage of scripture that speaks of creation as occurring "dia" JEHOVAH, if then he is not the creator then he must be part of the creation, colossians ch.1:15 clearly indicates that this is indeed the case and again we don't have to quibble as to whether this means he is the first creation or the foremost creation the two things are not mutually exclusive.

The JW argument incorrectly conflates "prototokos" with creation. While "prototokos" can denote priority, it does not necessarily imply that the one referred to is part of the created order. In biblical usage, it often signifies preeminence and authority. The use of "prototokos" in Colossians 1:15 highlights Jesus' supreme position over creation, in line with the overall biblical portrayal of His divine nature and role as Creator.

Me:JWs take note of the uniform precedent of scripture of including the prototokos in the implicit or explicit set of which he is prototokos there is not a single scriptural precedent for doing otherwise if there was you and your confederates would have produced it by now.

Nincs:John 8:54 and Acts 3:13 highlight Jesus' relationship with the Father during His earthly ministry. These passages do not contradict His divine nature but emphasize His incarnate role and submission to the Father as part of the salvific plan. You completely unfoundedly confuse the Old Testament use of the word "the Father" with the way "the Father" is used in the context of the NT, when it speaks of him in opposition to the Son.

Me: actually both John ch.8:54 and Acts ch 3:13 speak of the realitionship of the God and Father of Jesus(JEHOVAH) To the nation of Israel he is the one an only God of Israel so this has nothing to do with your incarnation and further more Acts ch.3:13 is speaking of the state of affairs after Jesus' glorification. 

And what about the spirit who was not incarnated, so the incarnation is a red herring .

Against Nincsnevem ad pluribus XII

 Nincs:The assertion that "there is no such thing" (?!) as a non-temporal emergence is nothing more than proof by assertion, and a misunderstanding of metaphysical concepts. In Christian theology, specifically Nicene Christology, the Son's begetting by the Father is understood as an eternal generation, not a temporal event. This means it is a logical, not temporal, subalternation and relationship, affirming the co-eternity of the Son with the Father. "Whatever the Son is or has, He has from the Father, and is the principle from a principle." (Council of Florence) Orthodox Christology affirms the eternal, non-temporal begetting of the Son.

Me:if the Son has always existed then logically he never emerged whether his continued existence is dependent on another is a separate issue although such depedendence would render him inferior to the one God of scripture who is totally self sustaining and is in no ones debt.

Roman's ch.11:34,35,NKJV"“For who has known the mind of the LORD?

Or who has become His counselor?”

35“Or who has first given to Him

And it shall be repaid to him?”"

It is a rhetorical question JEHOVAH is in no ones debt especially for his continued existence.

Nincs:Origen explains this as an eternal act within the Godhead:

"For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood."

"Now this expression which we employ — that there never was a time when He did not exist — is to be understood with an allowance. For these very words when or never have a meaning that relates to time, whereas the statements made regarding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence; while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages. "

Any Creed that can be accepted without logic can certainly be rejected on account of logic indeed the ones rejecting for logic sake have a better cause for rejecting,than those who accept despite a plain conflict with logic.

Emergence requires time and place preservation is not emergence, although the idea of a God that is not self-sustaining conflicts with the plain declaration of scripture re:the character of the one and only JEHOVAH the only true God.

Nincs:This affirms that the Logos (Word) existed eternally with the Father, beyond the confines of time.1 John 1:1 uses "apo archē" (from the beginning) to indicate the Logos’ existence before creation, aligning with John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word." This indicates a pre-temporal existence, not a temporal beginning. The claim that "apo archē" refers to a temporal beginning is refuted by the context of John 1:1-3, which clearly states that the Logos was with God and was God, emphasizing the eternal nature of the Word.

Me:Apo arkhe ALWAYS Means from the beginning never from eternity which would definitionally mean without beginning.

The fact that he is apo arkhe excludes his being from eternity, notice that JEHOVAH is NEVER spoken of as being "apo arkhe" because it would be absurd.

Nincs:The phrase "archē tēs ktiseōs" in Revelation 3:14 is often mistranslated in the NWT as "the beginning of the creation BY God." The correct translation, "the 'archē' of the creation OF God," indicates Christ as the source or origin of creation, not the first created being. The NWT's use of "by" instead of "of" is misleading. The Greek text does not support "hupo" (by), but rather "archē" denotes the origin or source, aligning with John 1:3 where all things were made through Him. It is also no coincidence that no one referred to Rev. 3:14 in the 4th century Arian debates, why? Because a native Greek speaker would never think of such nonsense, since all educated Greeks knew that the archē is the first principle from which creation flows, not the first piece of created things. Read this: https://justpaste.it/bv4ep

Me: I never quoted from the NWT why is it that you people are ALWAYS the First to bring up the NWT, the creation OF JEHOVAH Would logically have JEHOVAH as its source

Thus the context indicates the Jesus is starting point of JEHOVAH's Creation JEHOVAH himself being the source of that creation including Jesus which would match 

Proverbs ch.8:24,25 which shows his expressed wisdom being brought forth/begotten all the information and energy in the creation being from JEHOVAH This is a fitting analogy 

Your claim that a prophet cannot be equal to God and can be replaced overlooks the unique nature of Christ. Jesus is not just a prophet but the incarnate Word of God (John 1:14), fully divine and human.

Christ is actually superhuman having permanently sacrificed his human perfection for our sakes he has now been rewarded with superhuman perfection by his God and Father and still he acknowledges his God and Father as His superior

Revelation ch.3:12NKJV"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of MY GOD, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of MY GOD and the name of the city of MY GOD, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from MY GOD. And I will write on him My new name."

Nincs:Hebrews 1:3 states, "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being," affirming the full deity of Christ. Unlike prophets, Jesus shares the same nature as the Father, making Him indispensable and uniquely qualified as the Redeemer.

Me: more trinitarian cope a representation us never equal to the thing it represents,that is why if someone destroys your photograph they will not be charged with murder the photo is but a representation of you, it is not the reality of you, the reality is always of superior worth, note too that he is a representation of THE God (JEHOVAH) see Hebrews ch.1:1 not merely the Father,though that would be O.K because only the father is the unqualified "ho theos" in the N.T

Against nincsnevem ad pluribus XI

 Nincs:The context of Proverbs 8, where Wisdom is described as existing before creation, supports the idea of Wisdom being inherent to God rather than created. The translations using "created" reflect interpretative choices, not a definitive rendering of the original Hebrew. Do you even know the renderings of Philo of Alexandria, Aquila, Theodotion, and Symmachus? "Qanah" is used in Genesis 4:1 to mean "acquired" or "gotten." Similarly, in Deuteronomy 32:6, it refers to God "creating" or "fathering" Israel, indicating the flexibility of the term.

Me:actually it shows Wisdom being created at the beginning. And thus an eternal existence is a tortured interpretation.

We note that all the translators in question were trinitatians,including good catholics like yourself,  We are not surprised when trinitarians fudge to support their position,but when trinitarians muster sufficient integrity to admit the truth we praise JEHOVAH.

Actually cana is used at Genesis 4:1 to mean begotten, at any rate to speak of JEHOVAH'S Innate Wisdom as being acquired or begotten is to utter an absurdity.

Also re:Israel there was a time when there was no Israel and then JEHOVAH Begot him, clearly None of this would apply to JEHOVAH'S eternal Wisdom.

Nincs:"Ektise" in the LXX can indeed mean "established" or "ordained." Proverbs 8:22 in the LXX does not solely imply creation but can indicate an eternal, foundational role of Wisdom in God's plans. The verb "ktizo" changes the meaning of the text with a double accusative, and it will not be about creation, but about making someone something, e.g. to make him a king, here to make him "arkhe" or "reshit", which can best be translated as "first principle". In Genesis 1:1, "B'reshit" means "in the beginning." In Proverbs 8:22, "reshit" as apposition indicates a principal role rather than temporal priority. This aligns with Wisdom being foundational and eternal. The semantic range of "qanah" includes "acquired" and "possessed," fitting the description of Wisdom as an eternal aspect of God's nature. Translators' choices reflect interpretive decisions rather than definitive meanings.

Me: so there was a time that JEHOVAH'S eternal Wisdom was not established?

He was created in this role and the context makes it clear that he was created at the beginning . even your catholic translations admit that. The two things are not mutually exclusive nincs. Your assertions are not proofs nincs I don't know when you are going to get it through your thick skull?

Nincs:In context, "reshit" and "archēn" emphasize the primacy and preeminence of Wisdom, not its creation. "Reshit" in Proverbs 8:22 denotes a foundational aspect of Wisdom being the foremost, similar to how "archē" is used in John 1:1 to indicate eternal pre-existence rather than a created bebeginning.

Me: Your translators admit the fact that He was created as the foundation of JEHOVAH'S Work which would not be true of his innate wisdom which was not begotten or acquired or established by dint of effort either as the foundation or finish of his work. More trintarian style mental gymnastics.

Nincs:While some translations interpret "qanah" as "created," the broader context and semantic range of "qanah" support interpretations like "possessed" or "acquired," which align with Wisdom being an eternal attribute of God. The use of "qanah" can imply an eternal aspect of Wisdom rather than a temporal creation.

Me: JEHOVAH'S innate Wisdom was not acquired true effort, clearly what is being referred to hear is the beginning of JEHOVAH'S expressing of his wisdom. Via creation he acquired this manifestation of his wisdom.

Nincs:"Apo archē" in 1 John 1:1 is contextually understood to signify Christ's pre-existence from eternity, consistent with John 1:1's "en archē." It emphasizes the eternal nature of the Logos, not a created origin. The use of "apo archē" in 1 John 1:1 is not about a temporal beginning but highlights the Logos's existence before creation. The usage of "apo archē" in 1 John 1:1 and other contexts does not necessitate a created beginning. Instead, it points to a state of existence that predates all creation, aligning with the concept of the eternal Logos in John 1:1.1

More argument by assertion "apo arkhe" is ALWAYS used re:a definite beginning which really is the only kind of beginning that can sensibly be spoken of if a thing is from the eternal past it is definitionally without beginning. And the context of 1John ch.1:1 makes  clear that the logos us from the beginning.

I also challenged you to provide scripture where apo arkhe does not refer to a beginning. I'm still waiting.

Proverbs ch.8:24,25NKJV"When there were no depths I was brought forth,

When there were no fountains abounding with water.

25Before the mountains were settled,

Before the hills, I was brought forth;"

JEHOVAH'S Innate Wisdom was not brought forth (chuwl) this context also helps to explain why even many trinitarian translators begrudgingly admitted that created/begotten was the more likely meaning for cana.

Brown driver brigs re:chuwl"..twist, writhe:

a. in pain, especially childbirth Isaiah 26:17; Isaiah 45:10 ׳מַהתֿח ("" מהתֿוליד; metaphor, of sea Isaiah 23:4 ("" ילד); Israel Isaiah 26:18 ("" חרה), Isaiah 54:1 ("" ילד); Zion Isaiah 66:7,8 ("" id.), Micah 4:10 ("" גֹּ֫חִי, simile כיולדה; compare see 9), Jeremiah 4:31...

So no the context is on my side not yours.

Nincs"Archē" in Revelation 3:14 can also mean "origin", "first principle" or "source," indicating that Christ is the foundational principle through which all creation came into being. This aligns with Colossians 1:16, which states that all things were created through Him.

Me:The creation is dia him so he is not the source also the two things are not mutually exclusive the fact that he is the foundation of the building not only does not exclude the possibility that he is part of the building it makes it likely that he is part of the building

In as much Proverbs ch.8:24,25 shows him to be the first of JEHOVAH'S creation to be brought forth the overall context of the scriptures clarifies the matter

Nincs:Your interpretation of "reshit," "qanah," and "apo archē" as implying created beginnings is not consistent with the broader semantic and contextual analysis of these terms in Scripture. Actually Proverbs 8:22, 1 John 1:1, and Revelation 3:14 emphasize the eternal pre-existence and primacy of Wisdom and the Logos, aligning with traditional Nicene doctrine.

Me: as the scriptures at proverbs ch.8:24,25 clearly show it is you who are odds with the context.

Proverbs ch.8:24,25NKJV"When there were no depths I was brought forth,

When there were no fountains abounding with water.

25Before the mountains were settled,

Before the hills, I was brought forth;"

As I have often noted birth language of this kind when applied to JEHOVAH refers to his creative activity.

Psalms ch.90:2NKJV"Before the mountains were brought forth(Yalad),..

Acts ch.17:28NKJV"for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’"

At Genesis ch.4:1 cana is used as birth language.

All this tells us who Wisdom at proverbs 8:22 truly is

The apostle Paul identifies Jesus as the Wisdom of JEHOVAH.

1corinthians ch.1:24

JEHOVAH is without beginning, if a thing has always existed then it is definitionally without beginning so to speak of a beginning with reference to JEHOVAH'S Existence is to speak nonsense.

Against nincsnevem ad pluribus X

 Nincs:Even though you are waiting for such a precedent, you are after all waiting for a conceptual impossibility, because the Son is not only the first-born (prototokos) of the Father, but also his only-begotten

Me:That has nothing to do with whether he is part of the creation or not the two issues are distinct.

Hebrews ch.11:17NIV"By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son,"

As you know Abraham did have another Son

And both Sons were begotten temporally.

The Bible even speaks of Christ as being begotten temporally regarding his resurrection.

Acts ch.13:33NIV"he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:

“ ‘You are my son;

today I have become your father.’ b"

He can be spoken of as monogenes here as well as he is the only one to have been raised directly by his God and Father he is the only Son Fathered directly by him every other Son of God would have at least one other to regard as parent by JEHOVAH's kindly favor.

So the fact that he was uniquely created does not mean that he is uncreated.

  The Bible clearly shows that JEHOVAH creates through preceding creations.

Genesis ch.6:7NIV"So the LORD said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” "

 Of course none of the creatures on the earth at that time were directly created by JEHOVAH,they existed due to natural processes set in motion by JEHOVAH ,but because ALL (not most) of the information and energy that makes there emergence and preservation possible came out of JEHOVAH he justly takes credit for there existence.

Obviously the first link in this causal chain would possess a unique glory, and would be the unique Son of JEHOVAH.

 (monogenes), why should the Bible declare similar titles about others to mean that? I'd rather throw the ball back to you, so show me precedents when the term "firstborn" is used in the Bible in such a way, where membership is not a conceptual necessity (for example being born into the category), but the "firstborn of X" formula itself performs the classification. Because all your examples show that it's not the "firstborn of X" formula what implies category membership.

All of my examples? I gave no examples. I challenged you to provide an example where prototokos is used in a way that necessarily or even possibly excludes him either from the explicit or implicit set, your "response" is to try to answer a question with a question.

And this is a simple question either such examples exist or they don't maybe they are rare ,that's fine but if they are nonexistent as your nonresponse strongly suggest then that is a problem for your position.

Nincs:Malachi 2:10 and Ephesians 4:6: These passages affirm that God is the Creator and Father of all, but they do not exclude the Trinitarian understanding of God. The New Testament reveals the distinct persons within the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), each fully and equally God.

Me:To a committed trinitarian nothing falsifies their position the ideology has a lot in common with Darwinism that way and how could a position that its own advocates admit is incomprehensible possibly be falsified trinitarians hold the ultimate high ground in there own minds.

 What N.T shows is that the God and Father of Israel is the one God and Father of Jesus.

John 8:54 and Acts 3:13: Jesus acknowledges the Father as His God, aligning with His incarnate role. However, John 1:1, 1:14, and Colossians 1:15-17 affirm Christ’s divine nature and active role in creation, which aligns with the concept of the Trinity.

What about the unincarnated spirit the Father alone is the God Israel that is why we constantly read of THE God and HIS Son not their son your incarnation fudge is past its shelf life

Luke ch.1:32NIV"He will be great and will be called the Son of the MOST HIGH. The LORD God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” his God and Father is the MOST HIGH i.e WITHOUT equals thus making the JEHOVAH spoken of at psalm ch.83:18 if your God has two others who are equal to him he is not the JEHOVAH of scripture.

Nincs:The argument that "πρωτότοκος" implies group membership overlooks the contextual usage of the term to denote preeminence and authority. Scriptural examples show that "πρωτότοκος" can signify supremacy without implying that the subject is part of the group. In Colossians 1:15, the context clearly indicates Christ’s authority over creation, affirming His divine nature and role as Creator.

Me: The contrary claim that prototokos necessarily or even possibly excludes membership in the implicit or explicit set goes counter to the TOTALITY of scriptural precedent.

From thayer's:tropically Christ is called πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως (partitive genitive (see below), as in τά πρωτότοκα τῶν προβάτων, Genesis 4:4; τῶν βοῶν, Deuteronomy 12:17; τῶν υἱῶν σου, Exodus 22:29), "

Genesis ch.4:4NKJV"Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering,"

Deuteronomy ch.12:17NKJV"You may not eat within your gates the tithe of your grain or your new wine or your oil, of the firstborn of your herd or your flock, of any of your offerings which you vow, of your freewill offerings, or of the [f]heave offering of your hand. "

Exodus ch.22:29NKJV"“You shall not delay to offer the first of your ripe produce and your juices. The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me."

Against nincsneven ad pluribus IX

 The Hebrew word "qanah" can mean "possessed," "acquired," or "created," depending on the context. In Proverbs 8:22, the context of Wisdom being with God from the beginning suggests "possessed" or "acquired" in a non-temporal sense. The LXX translates this as "ektise," which can mean "created" but also "established" or "ordained." The broader semantic range of "qanah" supports the interpretation of Wisdom being an inherent, eternal attribute of God.

The Hebrew apposition "reshit" in Proverbs 8:22 can denote a title or role, not a temporal priority, so it means "AS the beginning", not "AT/IN the beginning, which would be B'reshit. This is seen in its use in other scriptures like Genesis 1:1 ("B'reshit" meaning "In the beginning") and its LXX counterpart "archēn," signifying a foundational or principal aspect, not a created one.

Me: The verse said he was "cana" in/as the beginning,neither would be true of JEHOVAH'S innate Wisdom which would coexist with the God they qualify,JEHOVAH'S Existence is NEVER spoken of as being from the beginning but from "olam" time indefinite.

so this is an expression an emergence of a work that made this Wisdom manifest to others a creation,

Even catholic translators admit that create is a better fit given the context:

Proverbs Ch.8:22NCB"“The LORD created me as the firstborn of his ways,

    before the oldest of his works."

Proverbs ch.8:22NAB"“The LORD begot me, the beginning of his works,

    the forerunner of his deeds of long ago;"

The use of birth language here is interesting

Eve is recorded as naming her second child Cain after "cana"

Genesis ch.4:1NAB" The man had intercourse with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, saying, “I have produced(Cana) a male child with the help of the LORD.”

As I've mentioned before birth language when used of JEHOVAH Always refers to his creative/preserving work.

    Proverbs ch.8:22NRSVA"The LORD created(Cana) me at the beginning[b] of his work,[c]

    the first of his acts of long ago."

Proverbs ch.8:22NRSVCE"The LORD created me at the beginning[b] of his work,[c]

    the first of his acts of long ago."

Proverbs ch.8:22JB"‘YAHWEH created me when his purpose first unfolded, before the oldest of his works."

      Proverbs ch.8:22NJB" 'YAHWEH created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works."

     Proverbs ch.8:22RSVCE"The LORD created me at the beginning of his work,[c]

    the first of his acts of old."

Proverbs ch.8:22RSV"The LORD created me at the beginning of his work,[c]

    the first of his acts of old."

Proverbs ch.8:22Douay/Rheims American edition"The LORD created me at the beginning of his work,[c]

    the first of his acts of old."

It really does seem that Mr.nevem's take is a minority view among catholic translators, not a disqualifier in itself but the majority view has a coherence that Mr.nevem's lacks to speak of a beginning re:the wisdom that qualifies JEHOVAH who is without beginning is to utter an absurdity.

  What about ancient translations:

Proverbs ch.8:22PHB"LORD JEHOVAH created me at the beginning of his creation and from before all his works."

Proverbs ch.8:22LXX"The LORD made me the beginning of his ways for his works."

  

The Hebrew "reshit" and the LXX "archēn" emphasize a role of primacy or preeminence rather than a temporal starting point. In Genesis 1:1, "B'reshit" means "In the beginning," but in Proverbs 8:22, "reshit" in the context of Wisdom being with God indicates a status of being the first and foremost, not implying creation. Thus the use of "archēn" in LXX and "reshit" in Hebrew highlights roles of primacy and preeminence, not temporal origins.

"Apo archē" in 1 John 1:1 does not imply a created beginning but indicates the Logos's existence from the beginning of time as understood in a temporal context. "Apo archē" indicates that Christ existed from all eternity, similar to "en archē" in John 1:1. It emphasizes Christ's pre-existence before the creation of the world, stressing that the Logos was with the Father before time began, not merely at the beginning of His public ministry or creation. The term emphasizes the eternal pre-existence of the Logos, not a point of creation. This aligns with John 1:1, where the Logos is identified as God and with God from the beginning. The term "apo archē" in 1 John 1:1 emphasizes Christ's eternal pre-existence, not a created beginning. Commentaries consistently interpret it as signifying existence before time, aligning with "en archē" in John 1:1.

 Me: The foundation of the building is a necessary and integral part of the building, so whether or not the foundation is created or eternal would depend on the context. "Cana" suggest a derivative of JEHOVAH'S Wisdom also JEHOVAH Would not be the foundation of his own work or anyone else's work. 

All beginnings are created beginnings or they would not be beginnings.

  1John ch.1:1NKJV"That which was from the beginning(apo arkhe),.."

Please feel free to check for yourself there is not one precedent for understanding "apo arkhe" as from eternity why for instance is JEHOVAH Never spoken of as being "apo arkhe"

Our Lord makes it plain as to which beginning is meant ,

     Revelation ch.3:14KJV"“And to the [i]angel of the church [j]of the Laodiceans write,

‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning(arkhe) of the creation of God: "

Colossians ch.1:15 makes the same point he is both the first and foremost of JEHOVAH'S Creatures. He is a true son derived from his Father and God like his brothers.

 

Against nincsnevem ad pluribus VIII

 Nincs:The consistent testimony of Scripture affirms Christ’s divinity and role as the Creator. This comprehensive involvement in creation underscores His divine nature. If Jesus were a created being, He could not be the agent through whom all creation came into existence. John 1:3 explicitly states that "all things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." This explicitly states that Christ is not part of creation but its Creator, which excludes the possibility of Christ being a created being.

Me: The fact that the creation is "en" "Dia" Christ is evidence that he is NOT the source of the information and energy in the creation. The fact that all things were created "en""dia" him is no more evidence that he is not created than the fact that all are to be resurrected "en""dia"  him is evidence that he was not resurrected.

1Corinthians Ch.15:22NKJV"For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ ALL shall be made alive."

The Bible routinely uses the word all with sensible exceptions.

Yet more on the bible as history.

 

Micah Ch.5 v.2 demystified.

   Micah 5:2

Some trinitarians tell us Micah 5:2 (or 5:1 in some versions) teaches that Jesus has always existed ("from everlasting" - KJV). And since only God has existed for all eternity, Jesus must be God! 

But look at other trinitarian translations of Micah 5:2. (E.g., "O Bethlehem ..., from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days" - RSV, cf. JB, NEB, REB, NAB, NIV, AT, Mo, NRSV, NJB, CEB, CJB, ERV, ESV, God's Word, LEB, MEV, NCV, NET, NLT, WEB, Byington, and Young's.) Not only does this verse not teach that Jesus has always existed, it even speaks of his origin in very ancient times. (Origin: "a coming into existence" - Webster's New World Dictionary, 1973.)

Why would these trinitarian translations admit such a thing? Perhaps because it is difficult to honestly translate the Hebrew motsaah with a word that does not include this understanding. (Even when "goings forth" is the rendering, it appears it should also be with the understanding of "originating." For example, if we said "the command went forth from the King," we obviously mean the command originated with - or sprang from - the king! And when Micah 5:2 says of the Messiah: "O Bethlehem ..., from you shall come forth [the Messiah]," it can only mean that, in his earthly existence, he originated in Bethlehem!) 

Obviously for so many respected trinitarian translators to choose this meaning ("origin") they must feel there is no other honest choice! The only meanings given by Gesenius for this word in his highly-respected Lexicon are "origin, springing" - #4163, Gesenius - cf. Micah 5:1 in The Jewish Publication Society's Bible translation, Tanakh.  

And A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament gives the only meaning for this word as used in Micah 5 as "origin." - p. 187, Eerdmans.

It would make no sense to interpret this as meaning the Messiah's human origin springs from ancient times. We have just been told that in Micah's time the Messiah's human origin was to be a future event and would take place in Bethlehem. Also there are no humans who haven't sprung from the very first pair in ancient Eden. It would be ridiculous to make the point that the human Messiah came from ancient stock since every human has done so. It must mean that his pre-existence as a spirit person in heaven originated in very ancient times (as the very beginning of God's creation - Rev. 3:14; Prov. 8:22). The Bible Greek of the ancient Septuagint, in fact, at Micah 5:2 says: "and his goings forth were from the beginning [arkhe], from ancient days [aionos]." 

The NIV Study Bible, in a footnote for Micah 5:2 explains: "origins...from of old. His beginnings were much earlier than his human birth." 

BUT THE TRUE, ETERNAL GOD HAD NO BEGINNING!

As for the Hebrew word olam, it can often be understood as “ancient times” or “of old” and does not necessarily refer to “eternity.” Here is how olam is used in the following scriptures in the NASB:


of old (Gen 6:4)

days of old (Deuteronomy 32:7)

From ancient times (Joshua 24:2)

from ancient times. (1 Samuel 27:8)

the ancient path (Job 22:15)

the ancient boundary (Proverbs 22:28)

the ancient boundary (Proverbs 23:10)

the ancient nation (Isaiah 44:7)

ancient ruins (Isaiah 58:12) 

ancient ruins (Isaiah 61:4) 

the days of old. (Isaiah 63:9)

the days of old (Isaiah 63:11)
          an ancient nation, (Jeremiah 5:15)
          the ancient paths (Jeremiah 6:16)

          the ancient paths (Jeremiah 18:15)

         the ancient waste places (Ezekiel 26:20)

         the days of old (Malachi 3:4)

Micah 5:2 literally says "days of olam." This same wording is found again in Micah at Micah 7:14:

Let them feed in Bashan and Gilead as in the days of old [‘days of olam’] (Micah 7:14).

Try substituting “eternity” in the above scriptures. It’s clear that the NASB has rendered olam correctly in those scriptures. 

So, adding the fact that the Messiah had a beginning in this verse to the possibility of olam meaning “ancient” as translated here in numerous Trinitarian Bibles and and in many other scriptures, it seems evident that the RSV has correctly rendered Micah 5:2 - 

(RSV) Micah 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days. 


It's also very important to examine Micah 5:4 where Jehovah is recognized as being the God of the Messiah! (The NIVSB tells us in a footnote for this verse that the LORD [`Jehovah'] here - the God of the Messiah - refers to "God the Father.")
Posted by Elijah Daniels