Against NincsNevem VIII

 The eight in my responses to Mr.nevem

Nincsnevem:"JEHOVAH Cannot foreknow a thing if it is not foredetermined."

This is a very poor "solution" for the problem of how free will and divine predestination relate to each other. The way WTS theology handles this issue, and the end result they got out of it (a God who is not inherently omniscient, therefore existing in the flow of time) clearly shows how absurd the biblicist approach is.

AservantofJEHOVAH: The CONCLUSION that infallible foreknowledge is only possible where there is an unalterable predetermination combined with a knowledge of this predetermination is not a Solution to any problem. It is a logical deduction we live in a cause and effect reality thus every effect must have a preceding and effective cause JEHOVAH is the first Cause(and in an important sense the only one that matters). But there are no effects without preceding causes.

 If  the eternal future is unalterably predetermined then logically there is a causal chain

 Responsible and if JEHOVAH is the first cause then the buck stops

With him.

Nincsnevem:But okay, let's say that inherent omniscience implies that there is no free will (as Calvinism - according to many - follows). Well, then there is no free will, because the believer does not absolutize the truths concerning man against those concerning God, but vice versa.

Don't like the end result? Chapter 9 of the Epistle to the Romans is the answer for you.

The bible declares that JEHOVAH is the epitomy of Justice if this word is to be more than an academic matter it certainly ought to mean that he deals with is intelligent creation in a fair minded way i.e the opposite of asking us to accomplish what he fully knows is impossible and then charging his failure to render us capable of compliance to us as wrongdoing on our part 

And then not content with this punish us with eternal suffering for what is plainly his fault.

Some wonder why there are so many atheist, I marvel that there are so few with the mainline churches promoting this nonsense as divine revelation

Daniel ch.4:37NIV"Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble."

Nincsnevem:In church history, the following solutions were basically created:

1. Pelagianism

2. Semipelagianism

3. Molinism

4. Thomism

5. Calvinism

I have given the order not in the order of the development of the given theology, but in the extent to which human free will is absolutized at the expense of divine order. In this regard, WTS is Pelagian.

AservantofJEHOVAH:Mr.nevem speaks as if liberty is some kind of human invention and not the creation of a truly omnipotent God who is free to communicate his own genuine liberty to his offspring it is an inability to produce such a genuine liberty

Which would be a necessary(though not sufficient ground,) for any true morality that injures the divine majesty.

 Any affection mechanistically predetermined from eternity is affection in name only, as would be any other "virtue" so predetermined be a mockery of said virtue. If JEHOVAH Cannot the deliver the liberty that makes true virtue possible then a huge question mark is put over his deity

Fortunately for all concerned the JEHOVAH of scripture is incomparably superior to the "jehovah" of Christendom.

And has promised to deliver GENUINE liberty in abundance to all the faithful

Romans ch.8:21NIV"For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that h the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God."

Nincsnevem :Does God's foreknowledge influence our free actions? In theory, we must answer no, otherwise we cannot talk about free will. However, how this foresight is compatible with freedom is answered by different theories – as we have seen – the Thomists and Molinists have different views. Before the Thomist-Molinist debate, answers were usually given that viewed divine knowledge separately from divine will.

They said that if we contemplate God's foreknowledge in itself, it cannot influence people's actions. Jerome writes, "Something will not happen in the future because God knows it will happen in advance; but God knows it in advance because it will happen" 

AservantofJEHOVAH :missing the point as usual ,if it is accurately foreknown from eternity then it was unalterably predetermined from eternity ,the causal chain starts with JEHOVAH exclusively so the buck stops with him for every eternally predetermined outcome.

                Isaiah ch.46:10NIV"I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My PURPOSE will stand, and I will DO all that I please.’"ose

So JEHOVAH is not a mere passive of observer of a future that has determined itself he is the architect and builder of the future. He goes about this project with the liberty of his intelligent creation in mind.

Nincsnevem:(Dial adv Pel 3 6). Similar statements are made by Origen, Eusebius, Epiphanius, Chrysostom, Augustine, etc.). Modern analogy: I look at my watch and find that a train will arrive at the railway station in half an hour; it does not arrive because I know it, but I know it because it will arrive. Augustine says that just as our reminiscences do not alter or influence past events, so God's foreknowledge does not influence future events (Lib arb III 4 4; cf. Civ V 10).

No thought ,just mindless parroting of dead men. I'm sorry but it's difficult to take anyone who thinks JEHOVAH'S foreknowledge is comparable to man's seriously .JEHOVAH is the first cause ,ALL of the information and energy in the universe came out of him he has established by his omnipotence what is determined and what is undetermined. He can create genuine liberty because he is invincible ,no creature can interfere in his purpose regardless of the choices they make or don't make hence he is utterly fearless.

It seems like the source much of the ideology undergirding predestination is a desire to project human type insecurity and presumption of scarcity on JEHOVAH. JEHOVAH Possesses absolute logistical supremacy . He has the ultimate high ground unlimited firepower and an unblinking all-seeing eye on the entirety of the theatre he has no need to plan. He does not need certainty as to the future decision(s)

 of any creature to be guaranteed of absolute success. Thus He has no apprehension about conferring Genuine liberty upon his intelligent creation.

Nincsnevem: However, this solution holds only as long as we are solely considering divine knowledge, disregarding divine will. In reality, God does not merely observe future things; they do not have an existence independent of His will that would determine divine understanding.

God does not weigh our actions after the fact, their motives, and the responsibility for them. He foresaw all this, and everything happened as he saw. In His knowledge, things and actions appear with their full causality, hierarchy of values, and interaction.

AservantofJEHOVAH: the "it's God's will" argument invariably makes things worse because it means that without violating any objective standard He could have willed otherwise and arbitrarily chose to will the eternal suffering for the vast majority of humanity and a sizable plurality of his angelic hosts. Truly a doctrine of devils. See 1Timothy4:1 surely it would have been better to create no intelligent being at all

        Job ch.3:11NIV"“Why did I not perish at birth,

and die as I came from the womb?"

Nincsnevem: why God's foreknowledge does not influence us? The full answer depends on answering another question: in what does God foresee our free acts of will? There are three  answers to the latter question: either the Thomists', the Molinists', or the one that it is an unfathomable mystery for us.

aservantofJEHOVAH : Talk about a round about way of saying I don't know. One more time JEHOVAH is the first cause free moral agency is not some human contrivance it is a divine gift if the gift is phony which would be the case if eternal determinism is true then the giver is to blame not receiver

Nincsnevem:"either so if evil is eternally predetermined then logically JEHOVAH Alone is to blame."

This is also a very poor solution to the theodicy problem. With this much power, God is to blame because he kept the murderer alive, even though if he hadn't kept him alive, he would have fallen back into the primordial chaos.

AservantofJEHOVAH: or God could have chosen to not create the killer at all having known from eternity that he had no choice but to kill because murder is a value term that only applies to those with genuine free moral agency we don't speak of random falling objects objects as murdering those they may fatally strike.

So if determinism is true there is no crime only divinely predetermined misfortune.