Against nincsnevem XI

 The eleventh installment in my responses to Mr.Nevem

Nincsnevem:When I discuss with JWs, I always suggest that we talk not about "the Trinity", but about the Nicene doctrine: was the Son begotten/born from the Father before all worlds/ages, or was he created at a certain time? 

AservantofJEHOVAH: Here is the thing nontheists are told in response to the question of who/what made God that God is brute fact and requires no cause once we get to eternity there are no cause and effect relations, as cause must precede effect. I think atheists would be justified in thinking that Trinitarians are talking out of both sides of their mouths when they speak of an eternal God being caused.

The real issue is the identity of the most high God, the most high God by definition can have no equals. Obviously neither the Nicene creed's Father nor Son can be the most high God. Also first cause arguments are based on the necessity of the first cause if the Son is himself an effect then he is unnecessary/redundant redundancy violates the principle of Occam's razor and biblical theology JEHOVAH is absolutely superlative and necessary JEHOVAH is also immutable, in the dictionary sense ,every declaration about him in scripture is to be understood as a permanent and unchangeable fact e.g:

1Kings ch.8:27ESV"“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven CANNOT contain you; how much less this house that I have built! "

Note please that JEHOVAH'S being outside of his creation is not presented as incidental it is a logical necessity like the relationship of pi to the circumference of the perfect circle.

What does it mean that the New Testament always consistently uses the verbs tikto / gennao and never the verbs poio / ktizo for the origin of the Son from the Father? Is fully God, or just possessing some ontologically inferior divinity?"

Does the use of the term begotten mean/suggest eternity ?

Acts ch.13:33ESV"this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,

“‘You are my Son,

TODAY I have begotten you.’"

So there is no suggestion that JEHOVAH'S Begetting of his only Son must necessarily be eternal. It is also noteworthy that the resurrection is called a Begetting in as much as that word suggest a bring into being of something that did not exist prior to its begetting.

Jesus says that JEHOVAH becomes Father to those he resurrects

Luke ch.20:36NIV"and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection."

The resurrection is a creative act for JEHOVAH Begetting and creating are synonymous.

Psalms ch.90:2KJV"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God."

Note the use of the birth language. Is it the case though that no part of the N.T includes Jesus in the creation.

Colossians ch.1:15-17KJV"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. "

First we note that Jesus is not merely called the image of the Father he is repeatedly called the image of the GOD, so we agree with the Nicene creed that Jesus is the son of the Father alone, but we disagree with the assertion the God and Father of Jesus does not exhausts the category of most high God

Luke ch.1:32KJV"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the LORD God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: "

As an aside we note a bit of trinitarian style evidence that David is in fact the most high God.

 if his Father is the most high God and by common consent he is not numerically identical to his Father then logic demands the conclusion that he is not the most high God. He is further called the firstborn(grk. Prototokos) of every creature in every(as in without exception) other occurrence of this term in scripture the referent is understood to be a part of the implied set ,some claim that because all things are created "en" and "Dia" him he cannot be part of the creation. Though the prepositions "en" and"Dia" are translated as "by" in the King James they suggest an intermediary role between him and the ultimate source of the creation ,note for instance the way that these same prepositions are used at Hebrews ch.1:1 and John ch.1:17

Colossians ch.1:18ESV"he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent."

We note that no one would use the same logic to deny that Jesus was in fact resurrected 

1Corinthians ch.15:21KJV"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead."

Also consider Revelation ch.3:14KJV"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of (The)God;" 

The one thing that is clear from the grammar is that the source of the creation is the God not merely the Father .The Father is the God John is consistent in his use of 'arche' to mean beginning so the King James is on solid ground here.

The most undeniable conclusion here is that the Father i.e JEHOVAH is the most high God logic therefore demands that everyone else be considered part of his creation.