the bible,truth,God's kingdom,Jehovah God,New World,Jehovah's Witnesses,God's church,Christianity,apologetics,spirituality.
Saturday, 29 July 2023
Bringing "science" down from Olympus.
Douglas Axe: Science as a Human Enterprise
How wise is the faithful and wise servant.
The Society's leaders build their authority on this and therefore do not tolerate contradiction or independent thinking within the organization, therefore they call everyone to convert and obey them in everything.
Anyone who thinks that they have a superior command of the bible on any topic than me is free to demonstrate said superior knowledge our readers can judge for themselves whose interpretations are forced and whose are who is determined to let the bible speak for itself that is why I know that those selected by JEHOVAH are trustworthy. Like Socrates I have put all you biblical illiterates to the test and am satisfied that you have nothing to teach me. It is simply a lie to claim that the brothers have quibbled on fundamentals the fundamentals of our faith are regarding the nature of the one true God and his Messiah and the need to remain separate from the world the understanding of prophecy has ALWAYS been understood to be provisional that is why brothers used the term present truth. Indicating that overall their understanding of prophecy though imperfect was the best approximation available and that any better approximation must await JEHOVAH'S design.
https://aservantofjehovah.blogspot.com/2023/07/on-false-prophets-and-false-accusers.html?m=1
Scripture or tradition?
Anonymous:Tradition Is Not a Dirty Word
Protestants often quote the verses in the Bible where corrupt traditions of men are condemned (e.g., Matt. 15:2–6; Mark 7:8–13; Col. 2:8). Of course, Catholics agree with this.
I totally agree that tradition is not a dirty word however
"Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other."
The inspired scriptures are to supersede all else.
In defence of biblicism
Anonymous:Biblicism is right that the church is entirely under the law of Scripture and is only a church insofar as it listens to Scripture. But the dogmatician, as a member of the church, can only reach the hearing of the Word together with the church, not in a vacuum or arbitrarily chosen space, but within the church.
Matthew ch.7:21-23ESV"“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
Only the head of the church has the authority to declare it's boundaries and who is inside or outside of those boundaries. The fact that you are wealthier and more powerful as this world tends to evaluate matters means nothing to him he has provided a sign for sincere truth-seekers
Matthew ch.7:15NIV"“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? "
The violent oppression perpetrated by Christendom including her persecution of JEHOVAH'S People rule out any possibility that that tree was planted by the God and Father of Jesus Christ.
Matthew ch.15:13NIV"He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots."
JEHOVAH distinguishes himself from the false Gods and their acolytes by blessing his people with global peace that they simply cannot replicate
Isaiah ch.2:3,4ASV"3And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of JEHOVAH, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of JEHOVAH from Jerusalem.
4And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
Any God who cannot bring peace among his own people cannot be trusted to bring world peace.
In his days shall the righteous flourish, And abundance of peace, till the moon be no more.
8He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, And from the River unto the ends of the earth.
JEHOVAH'S Word or human councils.
Anonymous" The theologian cannot teach about the Scriptures if he has not first heard it in the church community. The Bible is read by the church and in it the church hears the Word of God. This means that when we read the Bible, we must also hear what the church has so far read and heard from the Bible."
Christians are supposedly disciples of Christ, is it the example that we received from our Lord to put tradition above the plain reading of the sacred text ,btw the text repeatedly makes it clear that is JEHOVAH'S creation and possession and not the property of any man or council of men.
Thessalonians ch.2:13NIV"And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe."
Mark ch.7:6-8 NIV"He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“ ‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’ b
8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”"
So this seems clear enough our Lord's council is that under no circumstance is any tradition to supersede JEHOVAH'S word.
JEHOVAH'S People and philosophy
Anonymous:"You will hardly be able to deal with scholasticism with the Watchowerite excuse that it is "philosophy". Anyway according to my belief "the philosophy" is usually not some satanic horrible thing in itself that has to be feared. According to Catholic Teaching, "faith seeks understanding, reason seeks faith""
The issue is not one of philosophy or not but rather the embrace of flagrant violations of the laws of logic as sophisticated thinking.
In his book intellectuals and society warned about the ability of intellectuals to create labrynthine mental constructs that tend to cut the mind off from feed back from the real world. It is simply not possible to abandon the laws of logic without impairing epistemology.
The common man's philosophy
Anonymous :"If you make the criterion of a religious truth the simple people's "common sense" compliance, indeed, not much would remain of Christianity, as it is full of miracles: they simply do not meet the "common sense". Now I don't mean the quick answer that "God can do it", but the question of how exactly. But it shows that if you have to explain miracles, even the wildest rationalist-biblicist can dismiss it by saying that it is supernatural, and it does not matter if it does not match formal logic, "
There are no miracles recorded in scripture that are any more puzzling and inexplicable than the one we each see in our mirrors every day yet we can be sure that like every other miracle
Performed by JEHOVAH Logical contradictions are not a factor in its explanation. The bible has satisfying answers for all the questions it raises none of which requires the embrace of logical contradictions JEHOVAH is sage not Mage
Jeremiah ch.10:12NIV"But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his WISDOM and stretched out the heavens by his UNDERSTANDING."
Letting the book speak for itself
Unknown: see a concrete example: The Scripture teaches that there is one God: yet it states both explicitly and implicitly that there are three subjects who are God.
Actually there are more than three subjects called God in the scriptures
The angels are called God
Psalms ch.8:5
Moses is called God
Exodus 7:1
At John 10:34 and Psalms 82:1-6 the rulers of the Hebrew nation are called God's
If there is one way of interpreting the scriptures that makes sense and that can be consistently applied and another that leaves matters even more puzzling after its application and that cannot be consistently applied. Occam's razor demands that the former be the preferred choice.
Friday, 28 July 2023
Against Nincsnevem XX
Nincsnevem:Regarding Matthew 24:15, this refers back to Daniel 9:27, thus the New Testament scripture indeed references the prophecy in question from the book of Daniel, but not in relation to the coming of Jesus Christ, but rather in connection with the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the world.
The destruction of Jerusalem was a divine judgment and thus was effected through Christ here is John's Warning Luke ch.3:16NIV"John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and FIRE."
Thus The outpouring of divine wrath by the risen Christ upon 1st century Jerusalem was a miniature fulfillment of his coming to judge all the world especially those gigantic religious bureaucracies and their enablers claiming to be Christians or spiritual jews. That there is a larger fulfillment is confirmed by the use of imagery from the book of Daniel in the post temple inspired book of revelation
Against unknown?II
This well known propaganda technique is called poisoning the well. It is a a variant of the ad hominem attack. You will notice that no actual argument is presented. Merely defamatory propaganda with the aim of dissuading the reader/listener from giving the opposing view a fair hearing.
The pitch in this case is based on the implied lie that the brothers have claimed prophet hood or infallibility or some such nonsense.
The fact of the matter is the Society's founders were cessationists who believed in a closed canon
:We have not the gift of prophecy Zion's Watch Tower, July 1883.
Zion's watchtower January 1908With regard to 1914: : "We are not prophesying; we are merely giving our surmises . . . We do nvot even aver that there is no mistake in our interpretation of prophecy and our calculations of chronology. We have merely laid these before you, leaving it for each to exercise his own faith or doubt in respect to them"
Another fact is none of those Ideas were thought up by the brothers they were based on commentaries that preceded them some long before Russell was born. The fact of the matter is that we believe that JEHOVAH is blessing our community of Ernest bible students in our research because with the benefit of hindsight we can see the emergence of a clearer picture of JEHOVAH'S Character and purposes from scripture and that the promises of religious cleansing and global peace that JEHOVAH indicated would be fulfilled upon keepers of his present truth are quite frankly being fulfilled only upon JEHOVAH'S servants,and not because we think our leaders are prophets or saints or infallible.
Isaiah ch.2:3,4ASV"3And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of JEHOVAH, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of JEHOVAH from Jerusalem.
4And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Daniel ch.12:8-10ASV"And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my lord, what shall be the issue of these things? 9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end. 10Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand"
The argument that Satan can cause these prophesies to be fulfilled on those he confuses but that Jesus cannot cause them to be fulfilled on those he enlightens is tantamount to arguing that Satan is wiser than Jesus.
Why every Friday is a black Friday for Darwinists.
Fossil Friday: Another Prediction Vindicated
Against nincsnevem XIX
The nineteenth installment in my responses to Mr.Nevem
Nincsnevem5:49 AM
This is really easy to answer: according to his human nature, Jesus is a Messianic King, according to his human nature he is the heir to David's throne, and of course Jesus' humanity is not God, not YHWH. Jesus' human and divine natures are distinct but inseparable.
Reply
aservantofJehovah6:31 AM
"This is really easy to answer: according to his human nature, Jesus is a Messianic King, according to his human nature he is the heir to David's throne, and of course Jesus' humanity is not God, not YHWH. Jesus' human and divine natures are distinct but inseparable.,"
Here is the thing Mr.nevem the verse makes no mention of a nature but of a person so if this person( not nature) is equal to his Father is not the most high or he is his own Father stop putting words in the prophet's mouth
Also there is a small matter of the Holy Spirit who is not the Father of Jesus according to the Nicene creed and not incarnated if he is equal to the Father then obviously the Father of Jesus is not the most high.
So your fudge fails the person (not the nature) of the Father is greater than the person of the Son and if the spirit is a person greater than the person of the spirit.
Luke ch.1:32NIV"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, "
A similar problem exists with Matthew ch.24:36
Matthew ch.24:36KJV"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my FATHER ONLY. "
Why would the unincarnated Spirit not know the day or hour
And if you could just put the smug away for a minute(because it is clearly impeding your judgment) you will see that the question was mainly about the identity of the most high because, by definition the most high can have no equals so who is this unequalled Father of Jesus.
So it really doesn't matter whether the human Jesus was less than his father if there is a divine Jesus that is equal to his Father his Father is not the MOST HIGH as per the dictionary definition of that term
Against Nincsnevem XVIII
Daniel 12:4 is not a prophecy about the Daniel 12:4 is not a prophecy about the evolving doctrines of a denomination would be created in the 19th century, but on the one hand, the book of Daniel basically refers to Antiochus' persecution, and on the other hand, in a biblical context, "the last time", the messianic era itself, which is the last era in order, and therefore last, because there will be no more periods, no third covenant, it also does not apply to the 20th century. doctrines of a denomination would be created in the 19th century, but on the one hand, the book of Daniel basically refers to Antiochus' persecution, and on the other hand, in a biblical context, "the last time", the messianic era itself, which is the last era in order, and therefore last, because there will be no more periods, no third covenant, it also does not apply to the 20th century.
This of course is the opinion of men who refuse to let the bible speak for itself let us instead here from a real expert on the subject
Matthew ch.24:15NIV"“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet DANIEL—let the reader understand—"
This of course is well after Antiochus the book of revelation written long after the Fall of the temple borrows a lot of its imagery from the book of Daniel
Revelation ch.13:2NIV"beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. "
Compare Daniel Chapter 7:1-8:
Daniel ch.12:8-10NIV"I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
9He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand"
Amen and Amen
Against unknown?
Corinthians 2:14-15, which says that "a physical man does not receive the things of God," but that "the spiritual man examines indeed all things." The JW should agree that what Paul means is that a physical man without God's
The word spirit can have a number of different usages it can refer to a spirit person but it need not. It can also refer to the inner mental life that might be inaccessible to onlookers see Hebrews ch.4:12 or indeed it may refer to the Holy Spirit. Here the contrast is between mindsets there is a mindset that results from submitting to/being led by the spirit and it is being contrasted with the mindset that results from submitting to/being led by the flesh JEHOVAH doesn't give his spirit to Just anyone he gives to to those hungering for it spiritual people
1Corinthians ch.2:11KJV"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit(mind) of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit(mind )of God."
1Corinthians ch.2:12KJV"Now we have received, not the spirit(Mindset) of the world, but the spirit(mindset) which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God"
So we are not dealing with a contrasting of essential natures because both the fleshly man and the spiritual man have the same essential nature but the spiritual man has chosen to pursue a relationship with JEHOVAH And the fleshly man has chosen to pander to the flesh
This spiritual mindset is not an essential nature it can be lost if not carefully curated likewise there is always the hope that one with a fleshly mindset can come to realise futility of attempting to satisfy the flesh and begin a sincere search for the truth.
Matthew ch.11:25NIV"At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. "
Unknown:without the Spirit will not accept the truth of God's word. Yet the contrast here is between the exact same two words (in Greek as well as in English, as can be shown using the JWs' Kingdom Interlinear Translation if necessary). Clearly, the "spiritual" man in this text has not ceased to have physical existence; the point is that the ultimate source of his life is different from that of the (merely) physical man. In like manner the "spiritual" body of 1 Corinthians 15:44 is not an immaterial body,
we know that all words can be used in a variety of senses so is the word pneumatikos/spiritual being used in the same sense at both 1corinthians ch.15:44 and 1Corinthian ch.2:14,15 one way to tell would be to carefully examine the respective contrasts that are being made
At 1Corinthians ch.2:14,15 it is two mindsets and not two essential natures that are being contrasted
While at 1Corinthians Ch.15:44 it is the essential nature of the body that is sown that is contrasted with the essential nature of the body that is raised up.
Unknowned:but one that is energized or enlivened by the Spirit in a way that it was not beforehand. And so this verse also is a prooftext for, and not against, the physical resurrection of Jesus.
It does seem that Paul was alluding to a change of essential natures though
1Corinthians ch.15:45KJV"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
It is important to note both what is said and what isn't said
It is said that the man was MADE a soul it is not said that the man received a soul so the man is a soul rather than possessing a soul
The same statement is made of the lower lifeforms they too are referred to as psyche/nefesh
Genesis ch.1:21KJV"And God created great whales, and every living creature(Psyche/Nefesh) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good."
Likewise it is not said that the last Adam received a spirit but that he BECAME a spirit the same word is used of angels
1Chronicles ch.18:21ASV"there came forth a SPIRIT, and stood before JEHOVAH, and said, I will entice him. And JEHOVAH said unto him, Wherewith?"
Just as the first Adam was not a Soul before becoming such neither was the last Adam spirit before BECOMING such
Think of Fred who goes to medical school and becomes a doctor there is no concrete distinction between Fred and the doctor that he has BECOME thus if Fred dies it would be understood that the doctor that he had become died.
And what does it mean for a soul to die it simply means that that soul has RETURNED to its pre-creation state:
Genesis ch.3:19NIV"By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until YOU(not your body) RETURN to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust YOU(not you body) are
and to dust YOU(not your body) will RETURN.”
Though the bodies possessed by spirit beings are essentially intangible ,invisible and certainly not humanoid. they can materialise bodies that look indistinguishable from humans
Luke ch.24:4ASV"And it came to pass, while they were perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel: "
Such materialisations would not only explain his tangibility on occasion but also his mysterious appearances and disappearances
Luke ch.24:31 ASV"31And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he VANISHED out of their sight."
Luke ch.24:31ASV"And as they spake these things, he himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. "
Thus the fact that Jesus could be visible and tangible if he chose to (at least before his glorification)
Does not disprove that his essential nature was spirit but his appearances and disappearances at times in forms that were not recognisable to his disciples
Suggest that he had exchanged his human perfection for superhuman perfection.
John ch.20:14NIV" At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus."
The best Son a mother ever had and she did not recognise him.
John ch.21:4NIV"4Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus."
They had known him their whole lives, if there is one person that you would think would be easily recognisable to friend and foe alike it would be Jesus Christ.
2Corinthians ch.5:1NIV"For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands."
Note there is no remodelling of the earthly house it is destroyed and replaced by a heavenly one the prospect of human perfection is exchanged for superhuman perfection.
Thursday, 27 July 2023
Color by design
Intelligent Design in Color Vision — A Gift to Us
The labrynth.
Against Christendom's theology
Against nincsnevem XVII
THE seventeenth of my responses to Mr.nevem
Nincsnevem:What does the "heavenly body" mentioned here mean? The text refers to the diversity of creatures on earth and in heaven as evidence of God's infinite power. So the "heavenly bodies" are, as written there: the Sun, the Moon, and the stars, i.e., celestial bodies. Remember back to the very first chapter of the Bible: "And God said, 'Let there be lights in the vault of the sky...'"
We see the trend of arguing by assertion rather than making a case continues here is the context of 15:40
1Corinthians ch.15:36-38ESV"But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body"
So nothing to do with the nonliving creation but the living Paul says that JEHOVAH would not need to reinvent wheel there are already models of living forms in heaven and earth each with its own glory angels are routinely compared to stars in the bible the resurrected sons of God are also compared to stars
Job ch.38:4-7ESV"On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
Daniel ch.12:3NIV"Those who are wise a will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. "
Revelation ch.22:16 NIV"“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you a this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
Against nincsnevem XVI
The sixteenth of my responses to Mr.nevem
Since you don't answer directly, I will do it for you: the term "spiritual body" ("sōma pneumatikos") is NOT used in the Bible for angels, since they do not have a "spiritual body",
First this is an argument from silence . One can't logical deduce anything from silence
1Corinthians ch.15:40ESV"For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another."
There are (present tense Heavenly bodies) so this is not speaking of what is to come but
Of what is now there are superhuman beings with bodies suited to a superphysical way of life e.g angels
1 John 3:2 also does not say anything about the resurrected ones becoming similar to the spirits in nature,
So what does it say
1John ch.3:2ESV"Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is."
We shall see him as he is and be like him
Exodus ch.33:20ESV"But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” "
It is impossible for humans to see JEHOVAH as he is and live
We understand all stated facts about JEHOVAH be permanent and unchangeable
By way of a second witnesses
1Timothy ch.6:16ESV"who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has EVER seen or CAN see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen."
This is why the human i.e flesh and blood CANNOT Inherit the superhuman
Flesh and blood refers to the human which is mortal by definition
Spirit refers to the superhuman only the superhuman can withstand that light
Nincsnevem"we do know what we will look like in the resurrection" - We know that it will truly be OUR OWN body (Philippians 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:38), not something transformed into an angel.
If we were transformed into angels we would know our own bodies the fact of the matter is that from birth we have changed bodies annually with no consciousness of having changed bodies so this is yet another non-argument the body that those in line for a resurrection in the superphysical realm will receive is adapted for life in that realm
And of course being a necessary element of ourselves we will recognise it as a necessary part of ourselves.
Phillipians ch.3:21NIV"who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."
Any body the person is raised up in would be his body we've had dozens of bodies over the course of our life and yet we think of them all as our one body there is no need to incorporate any of the substance from our corpse for the resurrected body to be OUR body
2Corinthians ch .5:1NIV"1For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. "
The old is destroyed to make way for the new
"where in SCRIPTURE does it say the angels don't have bodies" - Among others where Jesus says that the spirits do not have "bones and flesh" (Luke 24:39), but he does, hence He is not a spirit. Also in the places cited above.
More circular logic presume that all bodies are made of flesh and bones or that spirit here means spirit creature not an apparition and use your presuppositions as evidence
There are superphysical bodies. Physical bodies are not the only kinds of bodies referred to in scripture
1Corinthians ch.15:40NIV"There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. "
Each with its own glory Mr.Nevem
Nincsnevem:Why were the wounds of his crucifixion visible on Jesus?
As I have explained spirit creatures are able to materialise and dematerialise physical forms through which the communicate with humans
Genesis 6:4NIV"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."
Here are spirit beings materialising bodies capable of copulating with human females and producing offspring.
Reproducing some bodily scars would be child's play for such a being when I called spirit beings superhuman that is what I meant
When Jesus was appearing and disappearing he was always fully clothe sandals and all obviously he materialised the clothes as well
Against Nincsnevem XIV
My fourteenth installment of responses against Mr. Nevem
Similarly, the Scripture explicitly and decisively teaches the pure spirituality of God, not only in an inductive way, attributing understanding and will to Him, but by presenting God as a sovereign power over matter. Moreover: God is not like humans: He has no body, He is not visible, cannot be represented by an image, He is the father of spirits (Ex 33:20, Deut 4,1–6, Is 31,3, 40:18; Heb 12,9); He is simply a spirit: "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." (Jn 4,24; cf. Lc 24,39 2 Cor 3,7 1 Tim 6,16)
All spirit would imply is invisible and intangible to humans there is no implication of incorporeality and corporeality does not imply a humanoid body which of course was designed for the physical world there heavenly bodies
Very distinct from anything in the physical world
1Corithians ch.15:40NIV"There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another"
Exodus ch.33:20 ESV"But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”"
So he has a form just not one visible to humans
Deuteronomy ch.4:1-6ESV"“And now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the rulesa that I am teaching you, and do them, that you may live, and go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you. 3Your eyes have seen what the LORD did at Baal-peor, for the LORD your God destroyed from among you all the men who followed the Baal of Peor. 4But you who held fast to the LORD your God are all alive today. 5See, I have taught you statutes and rules, as the LORD my God commanded me, that you should do them in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 6Keep them and do them, for that will be your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, who, when they hear all these statutes, will say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people"
Again nothing to see here.
Isaiah ch.31:3ESV"The Egyptians are man, and not God,
and their horses are flesh, and not spirit.
When the LORD stretches out his hand,
the helper will stumble, and he who is helped will fall,
and they will all perish together."
Suggesting that flesh and spirit are mutually exclusive
But nothing about corporeality
Hebrews ch.12:9ESV"Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?"
Circular logic presume that superphysical means incorporeal
And use presumption as evidence
But these spirits are in danger of death if they disobey not torture.
2Corinthians ch.3:7ESV"Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, "
Nothing about the subject
You get basically more arguing in a circle.
Against Nincsnevem XIII
The thirteenth of my responses against Mr. Nevem
Nincsnevem:"With this in mind we should understand the statement that “the last Adam became a life-giving spirit” (1 Cor. 15:45). As spirit, Jesus also had a body, a body of glory (Phil. 3:21). The “spiritual body” that Christ had when He was raised from death and the spiritual body that we will have at the resurrection is not an immaterial body, but a body that is no longer subject to death and decay (1 Cor. 15:44)."
All spirit beings have bodies and glorious bodies at that
Your asserting a thing does not demonstrate it to be true a debate/dialog is not a lecture no one here recognise any authority you claim on these issues if you want to persuade anyone you to have to demonstrate from scripture
Nincsnevem:Further, when Paul says that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor. 15:50), He must mean that that which is mortal, earthly, and perishable cannot inherit God’s kingdom. “Flesh and blood” can simply mean mortal man, as a comparison with Jesus’ words at Matthew 16:17 reveals: “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.”
Flesh and blood pertains to the human even a sinless human like Jesus lower than angels it does not necessarily have anything to do with sin
Nincsnevem:1 Corinthians 15:45 - “’life-giving spirit’ does not speak of the nature of the resurrection body, but of the divine origin of the resurrection. Jesus’ physical body came back to life only by the power of God (cf. Rom. 1:4). So, Paul is speaking about its spiritual source, not its physical substance
More argument by assertion also called the circular logic fallacy
Romans ch.1:4ESV"and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
Which tells us nothing of relevance
Nincsnevem:, Paul is speaking about its spiritual source, not its physical substance as a material body. In summation, the resurrection body is called ‘spiritual’ and ‘life-giving spirit’ because its source is the spiritual realm, not because its substance is immaterial. Christ’s supernatural resurrection body is ‘from heaven,’ as Adam’s natural body was ‘of the earth’ (v. 47). But just as the one from ‘earth’ also has an immaterial soul, even so the One from ‘heaven’ also has a material body.”
In other words Paul was implying a contrast where there was absolutely none actually by this standard the both Adams are from heaven the first Adam's body was created ab initio the second Adam had a human mother and he did not become a spirit at his resurrection he was a spirit in a body before the rejoining of his restored corpse to his immortal spirit and afterward he was the same both Adams are exactly the same so what was Paul on about.
1Corinthians ch.15:45-49KJV"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."
As you read observe what the verse does not say .It does not say that the first Adam RECEIVED a soul it says he BECAME a living soul so you can think of say Mary going to law school and BECOMING a lawyer, no one would understand the lawyer that Mary had become as being distinct from Mary such that the lawyer that Mary had become could survive Mary's death .
Vs. 47 does not say that the first Adam's body is from the earth it says the first man who became a living soul was made of earth. Clearly we are talking about the nature of the entire man
Going back to verse 45 it does not say that the second Adam was always a spirit and upon his resurrection received a spiritual body. It says quite clearly that that the second Adam BECAME a lifegiving spirit again the nature of the second Adam is being contrasted with the nature of the first Adam there is no resurrection of a body it is the person who is resurrected.
We know that spirit beings can incarnate it's not their usual state but in order to communicate with humans without overly alarming them JEHOVAH'S angels have done this in the past
See Genesis ch.19:1,5 once Jesus became a Spirit being he would have this ability. That would explain why he could simply appear or vanish into thin air
Luke ch.24:31KJV"And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he VANISHED out of their sight."
In fact the reason they taught they were SEEING an APPARITION at Luke ch.24:339 (spirit beings are invisible) was because of the manner that he appeared out of thin air
Luke ch.24:36KJV"And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. "
This mysterious appearing and disappearing argues that Jesus had in fact exchanged his human perfection for superhuman perfection. Being aware of the capabilities of superhuman spirit beings to materialise and dematerialise humanoid bodies the fact that Jesus was tangible on some occasions before his glorification proves nothing one way or the other
Let us look again at the sequence at 2Corinthians ch.5:1NIV"For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. "
There is no remodelling the old house from a human source is Junked and a house from an entirely different source replaces it.
Against Nincsnevem XII
The twelfth installment of my responses Mr.Nevem.
"Anyway, where does the Bible say that either God or the angels have a "spiritual BODY?"
Luke ch.20:32 they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. "
Suggesting that they and the heavenly angels have similar bodies
1John ch.3:2KJV"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
If we a going to have the same human bodies we've had all our lives we do know what we will look like in the resurrection,John says it is impossible to know the appearance of heavenly resurrection body because it will resemble God's own body that no man has ever seen.
Suggesting that God does have a body though unlike anything in creation.
I can flip the question back at you where in SCRIPTURE does it say the angels don't have bodies or where is it specified that God has no body we know for instance that angels came to the patriarchs in the form of men