Rock Bottom?

 Medically assisted deaths could save millions in health care spending: Report

CBC news 

New research suggests medically assisted dying could result in substantial savings across Canada's health-care system.

Doctor-assisted death could reduce annual health-care spending across the country by between $34.7 million and $136.8 million, according to a report published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal on Monday.

The savings exceedingly outweigh the estimated $1.5 to $14.8 million in direct costs associated with implementing medically assisted dying.

"The take-away point is that there may be some upfront costs associated with offering medical assisted dying to Canadians, but there may also be a reduction in spending elsewhere in the system and therefore offering medical assistance in dying to Canadians will not cost the health care system anything extra," said Aaron Trachtenberg, an author of the report and a resident in internal medicine at the University of Calgary.

Cost has to be a part of the discussion

The researchers used numbers from the Netherlands and Belgium, where medically assisted death is legal, combined with Canadian spending data from Ontario. Trachtenberg stressed that means the work is theoretical and needs to be readdressed when Canada starts collecting large scale data at home.

After June 17, 2016 when Bill C-14 became law, provinces began rolling out their plans to deal with requests for doctor-assisted death.

Manitoba has set up a Medical Assistance in Dying team (MAID). More than 100 patients have contacted MAID, with 24 receiving medically assisted deaths as of Jan. 6.

"In a resource-limited health care system, anytime we roll out a large intervention there has to be a certain amount of planning and preparation and cost has to be a part of that discussion," Trachtenberg said, adding the provinces' differing plans could impact the cost structure of implementation.

"It's just the reality of working in a system of finite resources."

The report estimated that about one to four per cent of Canadians will die using physician-assisted death. Of those, 50 per cent will be between the ages of 60 and 80.

The report estimates a 50-50 split between men and women. 

About 80 per cent of patients will have cancer and 60 per cent will have their lives shortened by one month while 40 per cent will have their lives shortened by one week.

End-of-life care has high costs in Canada

Health-care costs increase substantially among patients nearing the end of their life, Trachtenberg said.

"Canadians die in hospitals more often than, say, our counterparts in America or Europe and … we have a lack of palliative care services even though we are trying to improve that. And therefore people end up spending their final days in the hospital," he said.

"Hospital-based care costs the health care system more than a comprehensive palliative care system where we could help people achieve their goal of dying at home."

The report used Manitoba as an example, where 20 per cent of health care costs are attributable to patients within the six months before they die, despite their representing only one per cent of the population. Patients who choose medical assistance in dying may forego this resource-intensive period, the report said.

"Whenever we roll out a large-scale intervention there has to be a discussion around costs. But we do not suggest that costs should ever be considered at an individual level," Trachtenberg said.

"We are not suggesting that patients or providers consider costs when making this very personal and intimate decision to request or provide medical assistance in dying."

The report also emphasized that it is only a cost analysis and doesn't include the clinical effects on patients. Patient-level research will need to be done before true economic evaluation of medical assistance in dying in terms of cost-effectiveness and utility can be done, the report said.

Ps. I think it merits repeating that the kinds of hyper-political,lawfare type responses favoured by many can merely manage the symptoms they can never cure the disease.

"Professor"Dave =most clueless of all Q.E.D?

 Hello, Professor Dave: James Tour’s Criticisms of OOL Research Echo Those of Other Experts

Brian Miller 

In several articles we have already deconstructed the debate between Professor James Tour and “Professor” Dave Farina on the state of research about the origin of life (OOL). For example, see my latest, on Farina’s habit of citation bluffing, here. Today, I will address one of the few honest questions Farina and other critics have asked: If Tour’s critique of the field is accurate, why has he not published his arguments in peer-reviewed literature? The answer is simple: Tour’s criticisms and concerns have already been recognized by experts in origins research and published in technical journals. Tour has simply compiled and explained the challenges to the public to expose the disconnect between what the public has been told and the true state of the field. 

Steven Benner

One of the most comprehensive and insightful critiques of origins research is by Steven Benner (2009), a synthetic chemist praised by Farina. Benner’s article “Paradoxes in the Origin of Life” lists five seemingly insurmountable hurdles facing origin-of-life scenarios. I will explain only two. 

The first is termed the Asphalt Paradox. It refers to the tendency of systems of organic molecules to degrade into mixtures of molecules that are useless for life. Benner states:

An enormous amount of empirical data have established, as a rule, that organic systems, given energy and left to themselves, devolve to give uselessly complex mixtures, “asphalts”… Further, chemical theories, including the second law of thermodynamics, bonding theory that describes the “space” accessible to sets of atoms, and structure theory requiring that replication systems occupy only tiny fractions of that space, suggest that it is impossible for any non-living chemical system to escape devolution to enter into the Darwinian world of the “living.”

Benner goes on to explain why this tendency undermines all potentially viable approaches to explaining even the simplest and earliest steps toward life’s origin:

Such statements of impossibility apply even to macromolecules not assumed to be necessary for RIRI [replication involving replicable imperfections] evolution. Again richly supported by empirical observation, material escapes from known metabolic cycles that might be viewed as models for a “metabolism first” origin of life, making such cycles short-lived. Lipids that provide tidy compartments under the close supervision of a graduate student (supporting a protocell-first model for origins) are quite non-robust with respect to small environmental perturbations, such as a change in the salt concentration, the introduction of organic solvents, or a change in temperature….

Benner labels a second challenge the Information-Need Paradox. It refers to the implausibility of an RNA molecule forming with the information required for it to self-replicate. The central problem is that the probability is miniscule for a random sequence of nucleotides (the building blocks of RNA) to contain the required information for an RNA molecule to perform self-replication or any other complex function required for a minimally complex cell. Benner states:

If a biopolymer is assumed to be necessary for RIRI evolution, we must resolve the paradox arising because implausibly high concentrations of building blocks generate biopolymers having inadequate amounts of information. These propositions from theory and observation also force the conclusion that the emergence of (in this case, biopolymer-based) life is impossible.

At the end of the article, Benner exchanges the hat of an objective scientist for that of a high priest of the secular faith. He encourages his readers not to lose hope that the paradoxes will one day be solved. Yet no discovery since the article’s publication has suggested that the barriers to life’s genesis identified by Benner could ever be overcome.     

Tour’s critique appears far more charitable than Benner’s assessment. Tour simply stated that researchers do not yet have any understanding of how life could have originated. In contrast, Benner stated that the most fundamental theories of science and all experimental evidence point to the origin of life through natural processes being “impossible.”

Elbert Branscomb and Michael Russell

A second key paper is “Frankenstein or a Submarine Alkaline Vent: Who Is Responsible for Abiogenesis?” This two-part article (Part 1, Part 2) was authored by Elbert Branscomb and Michael Russell (2018), who are leaders in the alkaline-vent hypothesis for the origin of life. The article explains why all theories on life’s origin relying solely on natural processes must fail. The authors detail how nearly every reaction in cells requires molecular machines to drive it at the correct rate:

But even those of life’s molecular transformations that do run downhill have to be taken out of chemistry’s hands and “managed” by a dedicated macromolecular machine — in order to impose conditionally manipulable control over reaction rates and to exclude undesirable reactions, both as to reactants and products. On its own, chemistry is far too indiscriminate and uncontrollable.

The authors also state that the operations of a cell must conform to “an elaborate organizational design.” 

Life does not represent an emergent property of matter, but a system of processes directed by advanced nanotechnology to operate in conformity with a blueprint or design architecture. One could no more explain the organization of a cell through the chemistry and physics of its constituent molecules than one could explain the organization of a car through the chemistry and physics of metal, glass, rubber, and gasoline. 

Remarkably, the authors even recognize that the need for molecular machines eliminates any possibility of Life emerging through natural processes:

We claim in particular that it is untenable to hold that life-relevant biochemistry could have emerged in the chemical chaos produced by mass-action chemistry and chemically nonspecific “energy” inputs, and only later have evolved its dauntingly specific mechanisms (as a part of evolving all the rest of life’s features).

They respond to this challenge by appealing to natural selection. Yet nothing is reproducing, so their only hope for explaining life is a delusion. Here again, the authors present a bleak picture of the field by concluding that life’s origin appears “untenable.”

Assembling the Cellular Components

Ironically, explaining the synthesis of life’s building blocks (e.g., proteins, RNA, membranes, sugars) is far easier than explaining how they could assemble into a functional cell. What would happen if aliens deposited millions of tons of randomly sequenced proteins and RNA, cell membranes, molecular machines, and every other cellular component on the early Earth? Everything would simply decompose into “uselessly complex mixtures.” Even if decomposition were somehow prevented, forming a minimally complex cell would still require three steps: 

Selecting the correct proteins, RNA, and other structures out of an unfathomably large pool of molecules. 

Localizing the building blocks in a microscopic environment. 

Properly assembling the molecules and structures into a fantastically rare arrangement.

Tour explained the complete implausibility of these steps through known natural processes in a video, which I summarized in a previous Article. 

Irrelevant Research on Life’s Origin

Examining the assembly problem reveals the irrelevance of current origin-of-life research. Origins experiments and hypotheses represent mere nibbling around the edges of the real challenge, for reasons that can best be understood with an analogy. Imagine a group of scientists claiming that the laws of aerodynamics guarantee that a tornado plowing through an auto parts store will often assemble the parts into a functional car. To prove their point, they attempt to demonstrate that high winds under the right conditions can push nuts and bolts closer together. Even if successful, this one step is inconsequential in relation to the entire task of car assembly. 

Similarly, simply forming a few biologically relevant molecules or linking them together is inconsequential when compared to fabricating a cell, which represents a nanotechnology vessel capable of such feats as energy production, information processing, and error correction. Any honest assessment of the evidence must conclude that life did not originate through natural processes, but instead is the product of a mind.

The ancients weren't as dumb as we were told?

 Film Festival 2023 — “Three Big Myths”

Evolution News 

Proverbs ch.8 Rotherham's Emphasised Bible.

 8 .1 Doth not wisdom cry aloud? And understanding send forth her voice?

2 At the top of the high places above the way, At the place where paths meet she taketh her stand:

3 Beside the gates at the entrance of the city,—At the going in of the openings she shouteth:—

4 Unto you O men I call, And my voice is unto the sons of men;

5 Understand, ye simple ones, shrewdness, And ye dullards understand sense;

6 Hear for princely things will I speak, And the opening of my lips shall be of equity;

7 For faithfulness shall my mouth softly utter, But the abomination of my lips shall be lawlessness;

8 In righteousness shall be all the sayings of my mouth, Nothing therein shall be crafty or perverse;

9 All of them shall be plain to them who would understand, And just to such as would gain knowledge.

10 Receive my correction and not silver, And knowledge rather than choicest gold.

11 For better is wisdom than ornaments of coral, And no delightful things can equal her.

12 I wisdom inhabit shrewdness,—And the knowledge of sagacious things I gain.

13 The reverence of Yahweh is to hate wickedness: Pride, arrogance and the way of wickedness; And a mouth ofRiches and honour are with me, Lordly wealth, and righteousness;

14 Mine are counsel and effective working, I am understanding, mine is valour:

15 By me kings reign, And dignitaries decree righteousness;

16 By me rulers govern, And nobles—all the righteous judges:

17 I love them who love me, And they who diligently seek me find me:

18 Riches and honour are with me, Lordly wealth, and righteousness;

19 Better is my fruit than gold—yea fine gold, And mine increase than choice silver;

20 In the way of righteousness I march along, In the middle of the paths of justice:

21 That I may cause them who love me to inherit substance, And their treasuries I may fill.

22 Yahweh had constituted me the beginning of his way, Before his works At the commencement of that time;

23 At the outset of the ages had I been established, In advance of the antiquities of the earth;

 24When there was no resounding deep I had been brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water;

25 Ere yet the mountains had been settled, Before the hills had I been brought forth;

26 Or ever he had made the land and the wastes, Or the top of the dry parts of the world:

27 When he prepared the heavens there was I! When he decreed a vault upon the face of the resounding deep;

28 When he made firm the skies above, When the fountains of the resounding deep waxed strong;

29 When he fixed for the sea its bound That the waters should not go beyond his bidding, When he decreed the foundations of the earth:—

30 Then became I beside him a firm and sure worker, Then became I filled with delight day by day, Exulting before him on every occasion;

31 Exulting in the fruitful land of his earth, Yea my fulness of delight was with the sons of men. perverse things do I hate.

32 Now therefore ye sons hearken to me, For how happy are they who to my ways pay regard!

33 Hear ye correction and be wise, And do not neglect.

34 How happy the man that doth hearken to me,—Keeping guard at my doors day by day, Watching at the posts of my gates;

35 For he that findeth me findeth life, And hath obtained favour from Yahweh;

36 But he that misseth me wrongeth his own soul, All who hate me love death.

You're welcome.

 In the United States, numerous cases involving Jehovah's Witnesses are now landmark decisions of First Amendment law. In all, Jehovah's Witnesses brought 23 separate First Amendment actions before the U.S. Supreme Court between 1938 and 1946. Supreme Court Justice Harlan Fiske Stone once quipped, "I think the Jehovah's Witnesses ought to have an endowment in view of the aid which they give in solving the legal problems of civil liberties."[29] 

Dave Farina: team atheism's LVP? VI

 Professor Dave — Conspiracy Theorist

David Klinghoffer 

 The Tour-Farina Debate on the origin of life has provided more fun than I was expecting. We’ve posted a number of YouTube reviews of the event held at Rice University — not from ID folks but from self-identified atheists and agnostics who were disappointed, even “disgusted,” to see Dave’s lousy performance. Professor Dave, aka Dave Farina, thinks it’s a conspiracy of Discovery Institute “plants” writing these reviews. He told a commenter on his YouTube channel:

Yeah, those are DI plants pretending to be atheists so they can write loser damage control blog posts on Evolution News. Be harder to trick, champ.

I see. In saying “No, of course they’re not,” I don’t expect Farina to believe me. It’s tough to track down the identities of random YouTube commenters. But when I went back and looked at comments on the debate, almost the first one I saw was new to me and it’s from a self-identified “not religious” biochemist who calls Farina an “embarrassment for science.” Another Discovery Institute plant? Hardly. This scientist — Professor Javier Campos-Gomez at the University of Alabama at Birmingham — was easy to find and I emailed him for permission to identify him and to confirm that he is who he says he is. 

Not an ID Proponent

Yep, it’s him, and he added that he’s not a proponent of intelligent design, in case that was in doubt. Dr. Campos-Gomez wrote to me, “what I call nature you call God and what you call intelligent design I call a natural process.” Fair enough. Here’s what he Wrote (unedited) on the YouTube page for the debate. His words are eloquent and speak for themselves:

Dear Dr. Tour, you are not alone in this battle. I am not religious but I am totally with you. I am a biochemist myself very interested and informed about the origin of life and have always thought that the origin of life theories available are all fairy tales. Anyone that understand the complexity of life knows this. The prebiotic synthesis of biological relevant molecules, although a huge problem itself, is the less of the problem. Give Dave every single molecule needed to make life already synthesized in the correct chirality and ask him to make a soup that create life in the lab. Another huge problem you can add to your battle is that of the biological membranes. The available theories always bring the membranes as an act of magic. How can you maintain life required compartmentalization, even if you bring the membrane through magic, if the genetic traits required for the synthesis of the membrane are not present? How this magically added membrane was able to get genetically encoded in the DNA? And this holds true for almost every process in the cell. 

Regarding Dave, as always, ignorants are unable to recognized how ignorant they are, which makes them so sure of themselves as to act as total blatant arrogants. They usually use personal attacks instead of logical arguments. Dave is an embarrassment for science and made me cringe during the whole debate. He was the one that acted religiously and as a dogmatic believer in the “scientific” orthodoxy, while you acted very scientifically. You have all my respect. He seems to me the kind of scientist that will do anything, ANYTHING, to justify the grant money he gets over the scientific truth. Unfortunately, we have many of those.

A Citation-Bluffing Huckster

There you have it. Currently available origin-of-life theories are “fairy tales.” Farina’s performance was “cringe”-worthy. Indeed it was. Even if you spoke no English, you could tell from the body language and the respective manners of speaking on the part of Farina and Tour that, once deprived of his YouTube channel and his precious script, Farina was dominated by his opponent.

One correction might be that Farina isn’t a “scientist,” but a mere citation-bluffing huckster. (See Brian Miller’s Post for confirmation on that.) But Professor Campos-Gomez is a scientist with relevant expertise, qualified to spot a fairy tale when he sees one. Also a gentleman, unlike Dave Farina.

And still yet even more on the business of war.

Dave Farina: team atheism's LVP? V

 “Professor Dave” and the Art of Projection

Robert Schedinger 

We have all heard about the psychological mechanism of projection, whereby someone who harbors insecurities about aspects of their personality or character will often accuse others of exhibiting their own perceived failures. For example, a person insecure about their own intellectual abilities might develop a penchant for accusing others of being stupid or ill-informed. Projection, it turns out, is the perfect lens through which to focus the criticisms of ID leveled by its strongly atheistic opponents.

One of the common accusations made against ID revolves around ID’s perceived religious foundations. Since ID is just pseudoscience, the criticism goes, it must really be an attempt to push a religious agenda under the banner of science. ID opponents are viewed as engaging in a religious crusade to proselytize unsuspecting students in science classrooms. 

Been There, Done That

Anyone with even a passing familiarity with ID literature will recognize how grossly distorted this characterization is. But it is a powerful distortion and one I used to fall prey to myself. I distinctly remember in the late 1990s when a woman in the church I was attending tried to introduce me to Michael Behe’s Darwin’s Black Box. Thinking that this woman was a bit of a religious zealot, I simply dismissed her book recommendation, assuming it would be scientifically worthless. Imagine my shock when more than 15 years later, I decided to actually read the book and discovered just how misinformed I was about ID arguments. ID is a scientifically substantive theory that can stand on its own on the basis of empirical evidence. And it is this scientifically substantive foundation that sends its opponents into a tizzy, leading to the art of projection.

            If there is anyone pushing an ideological agenda in the guise of science it is Richard Dawkins. Knowing that he cannot really dispel ID on the basis of evidence, and insecure about the evidentiary basis of his own beloved atheistic Darwinism, Dawkins is forced to project his own insecurities onto his perceived opponents by accusing them of being the ones with an ideological axe to grind. The more Dawkins rails at the supposed religious zealotry of ID proponents, however, the more he reveals the depths of his own anti-religious zealotry. Similar kinds of projection occur in the work of other high-profile atheistic evolutionists like Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, and Jerry Coyne.Which brings me to “Professor Dave” Farina. Nowhere has this dynamic of psychological projection been on greater display than in the recent “debate” held at Rice University between Farina and Dr. James Tour about the state of origin-of-life research. Of course, calling this a debate would be like calling a stick-figure drawing the Mona Lisa. Dr. Tour, to be sure, came to debate the issues. Farina most certainly did not. 

Outrageous Personal Attacks 

Even after Tour, the host, treated his guest, Farina, with respect, even presenting him with a gift at the start of the debate, Farina launched into outrageous personal attacks, repeatedly accusing Tour of being a liar, a fraud, and totally ignorant of the basics of organic chemistry. At one point, his ridicule became so profound that he accused the audience of being “f***ing stupid” for taking Tour’s work seriously. While Tour continually tried to focus the debate on the complexities of theories of abiogenesis, Farina remained rude, smug, self-assured, and outrageously condescending to the eminent scientist standing nearby. In short, Farina’s performance was a classic case of projection, a case of projection on steroids.

Tour may be deeply religious, but his criticisms of abiogenesis are fundamentally grounded in empirical science. The difficulties of conceiving how life could have emerged from non-life without some level of intelligent direction are so serious, however, that they obviously threaten Farina’s militantly atheistic worldview. Unwilling to admit this, he instead projects his own insecurities onto Tour. When he makes the outrageous accusation that a scientist of Tour’s stature is ignorant of the basics of organic chemistry, Farina reveals how insecure his own knowledge of organic chemistry really is. And when Farina accuses Tour of being a fraud, all he does is highlight his own status (or lack of it) in trying to pass himself off as an expert on abiogenesis.

Tough to Watch, but Worth It 

The Tour-Farina “debate” was tough to watch, and many times I considered turning it off. But like someone at the scene of an accident, I could not turn away, and so I subjected myself to the entire two hours. But I am glad I did. For if I ever get asked to write a chapter on projection for a psychology textbook, Dave Farina’s outrageously disrespectful performance will be exhibit A. 

Dave Farina: team atheism's LVP? IV

 Professor Dave in his “Debate” with James Tour Showcases the Art of Citation Bluffing

Brian Miller 

YouTube personality Dave Farina (aka Professor Dave) "debated" James Tour last Friday about researchers’ progress in unraveling the mystery of life’s origin. The exchange proceeded as I anticipated. Farina immediately sought to hijack the debate, turning it from an honest discussion about science to something more akin to a World Wrestling exhibition match. 

After spewing insults and other invectives, Farina primarily engaged in a less than honorable debating technique known as citation bluffing — supposedly proving a point by citing technical literature but misrepresenting its content. When Farina addressed the science, he rifled through a long series of technical articles, but he greatly exaggerated the relevance of the studies to what could have occurred on the early earth. 

Amino Acids and Polypeptides

A central topic of the debate was the plausibility of amino acids linking (aka polymerization) in water into long chains (aka polypeptides) that could serve the role of proteins in modern cells. Tour explained the implausibility of such a scenario due to amino acid side chains interfering with the growth of the main polypeptide chain. Farina countered by listing several technical articles that he claimed proved the opposite, but the data in those very papers showed that several of the side-chain versions indeed cannot be accommodated. 

Farina also neglected to disclose that all the studies he cited either used chemically altered amino acids, unnatural environments, or specialized molecules to facilitate the linking. Comparable conditions could never have occurred on the ancient Earth. The titles of the articles appeared to support Farina’s claims, but the actual details of the experiments demonstrated the opposite. Tour in his videos has explained why, as I summarized in previous articles (here, here, here).

Tour is hardly alone in recognizing the challenge of forming polypeptides in water. The journal Nature published an article, “The Water Paradox and the Origins of Life,” that stated the problem as follows:

life’s cornerstone molecules break down in water. This is because proteins, and nucleic acids such as DNA and RNA, are vulnerable at their joints. Proteins are made of chains of amino acids, and nucleic acids are chains of nucleotides. If the chains are placed in water, it attacks the links and eventually breaks them. In carbon chemistry, “water is an enemy to be excluded as rigorously as possible”, wrote the late biochemist Robert Shapiro in his totemic 1986 book Origins, which critiqued the primordial ocean hypothesis.

Proposed solutions to this challenge require physical processes that dehydrate pools of water, allowing amino acids to join, but even then, the side-chain interference remains. Polypeptides with the proper bonds could never have existed in non-trace quantities. Another problem is that the required intensity of heat or other sources of energy destroy biologically relevant molecules such as RNA and sugars, so any progress toward life would be immediately lost. Tour explained these issues in his video that critiqued Lee Cronin’s Research . 

Self-Replicating RNA

A second topic addressed was research into self-replicating RNA, an essential component of the RNA world hypothesis. Tour pointed out that anytime chemical methods are used, the RNA nucleotides, RNA’s building blocks, hook up in the wrong way, and chains also include unnatural branching. Further, he stated that investigators have only been able to create RNA molecules that could copy a small percentage of themselves. Farina again responded by quickly displaying several research papers whose titles suggested that Tour was mistaken, and again Farina’s portrayal of the studies was false. 

The experiments only succeeded in Linking RNA strands together or Copying a small portion of themselves. In all cases of polymerization, the wrong linkages and branching ensued. The true replication was performed by complex molecules borrowed from modern cells under carefully orchestrated experimental conditions. Therefore, none of the studies had any relevance to what could have occurred in nature, as Tour detailed in previous Videos. 

During the discussion about RNA, Farina made his most outlandish accusation. He claimed that Tour did not properly interpret a graph of 13C NMR Spectra of the products from one of Steven Benner’s experiments related to the formation of ribose, a sugar used in nucleotides. Farina’s assertion was the equivalent of claiming that the head of a radiology department could not properly interpret an x-ray. 

The motivation for this desperate attempt to discredit Tour was obvious. Tour exposed how the reaction Benner used to generate ribose also generated many other molecules. The ribose could never have separated from the other molecules to drive the production of nucleotides in non-trace quantities. Consequently, RNA molecules sufficiently long to self-replicate could never have existed. 

The research would have no relevance to life’s origin even in the ideal scenario where only the four nucleotides formed in high concentrations. The smallest RNA that could possibly self-replicate is around 200 amino acids. The challenge is that the number of possible nucleotide sequences that long is over 10120, and the percentage of sequences that could perform self-replication must be miniscule. Benner

acknowledged in his article “Paradoxes in the Origin of Life” that sufficient RNA could never have formed for even one to have the correct information to self-replicate. The RNA world hypothesis is a nonstarter.

Lesson from the Debate

The debate offered an important lesson about the state of origin-of-life research. Tour’s critique of the field is so devastating that the only way to challenge his arguments is to misrepresent the technical literature and to engage in tactics founded on misdirection and disinformation. The post-debate comments on YouTube revealed that some who initially supported Farina recognized that his arguments and monologues were full of sound and fury but contained little substance. 

The primordial soup is past its sell by date?

 James Tour: Primordial Soup Bluffing Goes Right to the Top

Evolution News 

A classic episode of ID the Future features another installment in James Tour’s hard-hitting and evidence-based YouTube Series on abiogenesis. Here, Dr. Tour, a world-leading synthetic organic chemist at Rice University, describes the early Earth primordial soup concept for the origin of first life (OOL) and shows why it’s simplistic, bogus, and doesn’t represent the current science on the issue. He also reviews survey data showing just how misinformed the public is about how far scientists have gotten in creating life in the lab. One critic of Tour protested that the simplistic primordial soup story might be found in highly simplified textbooks for sixth graders but isn’t peddled at higher levels. Tour provides video Evidence to the contrary. Download the podcast or listen to it here.

The ostriches four kneecaps vs. Darwinism

 Kneecaps: “Ultimately, there might not be a simple pattern”

Cornelius G Hunter 

Why do ostriches have four, rather than two, kneecaps? A new Study has found several possible biomechanical advantages. Perhaps they allow the ostrich to straighten its leg more quickly, helping the animal to run quickly. Perhaps the lower kneecap protects the joined tendons crossing the front of the knee. One reason that does not help to explain the ostriches four kneecaps is evolution. That is because this unique design is not predicted, and makes no sense, on the theory. As one Article admits: “Bizarrely, many of the ostrich’s closest relatives don’t have kneecaps at all.” Similarities across the species were a strong argument for evolution, but in fact biology is full of unique designs, particular to one or a few species. Such one-off, “lineage specific,” designs are “bizarre” for evolutionists. So while there are design reasons for the ostriches four kneecaps, on the ordinary view of the evolution of each being, we can only say that so it is.

Not losing sight of the truth in the fog of war.

 A War of Words? How to Tell Who Won the Tour-Farina Debate

Casey Luskin 

A few years ago, just as I was finishing writing my PhD thesis, I received an email from an Internet questioner with the subject “War of Words.” This person expressed concerns that there is so much back and forth between experts in the debate over the origin and evolution of life and intelligent design, that it can sometimes be difficult for a non-expert to determine who is right. I can sympathize with this: Even though I have multiple science degrees, took many undergraduate and graduate courses in evolution, and have closely followed the science for years, it’s still a challenge to keep up with everything. What’s a non-expert to do?

Last Friday we witnessed a debate on the origin of life (OOL) between two widely followed voices on the topic: Rice University chemistry Professor James Tour, and YouTube science educator Dave Farina, aka “Professor Dave.” This debate, which took place on the Rice University campus, was at times turbulent, but it provides an apt example of how to answer my “War of Words” Internet questioner.

“No Viable Model”

The topic of the debate was: “Are We Clueless About the Origin of Life?” Discovery Institute did not organize this debate and I was not a big fan of this framing because it would be much harder to prove a high standard, that OOL researchers are “clueless,” than it would be to prove some lesser — but still entirely reasonable — claim like “There is no viable model for the origin of life.” Nonetheless, Tour faithfully stuck to the debate topic, and he made a strong scientific case against the natural chemical origin of life. 

Dave Farina represented the standard view that unguided natural chemical processes could have produced the first life on earth. Unfortunately, however, Farina decided to focus on a very different debate topic. His topic was essentially — no exaggeration — Is James Tour a liar and a fraud? — and that is precisely what he asserted over and over again throughout the night. Farina’s venom and personal attacks and insults against Tour knew almost no boundaries. It was a spectacle, and I was shocked that the moderator allowed it to proceed. But Farina’s focus on personal attacks and his repeated refusals to answer Tour’s reasonable scientific challenges made it clear to many viewers that Tour had the better argument. 

If you don’t believe me, consider some comments on the YouTube chat posted by viewers who are apparently self-described as atheists, agnostics, and/or former supporters of Farina:

“Am I the only non-religious person that finds Tour much more convincing than Dave? This debate made me further convinced. The problem with Dave is that strangely, as an educator, he in no way tried to educate James Tour, but only attack him and slander him, he has zero class, and from a psychology standpoint, seems like he did nothing but dodge and deflect, which would suggest he doesn’t have a deep understanding of the subject, but merely a surface level one, a true scientist wants people to understand the truth, and would carefully address Tours questions concisely and on a deeper level.”

“I’m an atheist, however, Farina’s smug and snide attacks on Tour throughout this debate, disgusted me. I may disagree with Tour’s mission, however, no one can ignore his considerable contribution to science.”

“I’m agnostic, but hearing Dr. Farina’s statements, grounded on insulting and sarcasm sincerely show more how clueless he or his community are…usually when you use sarcasm it is because you have [little] to say. I say this as an academic myself (other field though) when I see colleagues use sarcasm is because they don’t know how to ground their statements.”

“I’m [an] atheist and this was embarrassing to watch. Dave claiming that James doesn’t know how to read papers, while…citing barely anything beyond the titles of a bunch of papers. I think that disrespecting the audience and claiming to know what they do and don’t know was the worst move of the entire debate. It shows that he’s arguing emotionally.”

“I’ve been floating around this conflict, viewing from the outside. Dave’s videos helped me in middle-high school. Dave poisoned the well, then used insults and rhetoric as the substance of his ‘argument’. This was disappointing, I was hoping he would bring something of value. Dr. Tour won this one.”

You Don’t Need a PhD

So even though my “War of Words” questioner worried that you need to be an expert to sort through these issues, I’m going argue here that you don’t need a PhD in science and unlimited time to read the literature to quickly see who has the better argument.

You may not be an expert in chemistry like James Tour with a lifelong career trying to synthesize molecules in the laboratory. You may not have published hundreds of peer-reviewed chemistry papers like Tour. You may not even have taken any college-level science courses. But you can watch the debate and learn a lot about who has the upper hand on the OOL question. If you want to know who has the better argument, examining the rhetorical styles of different “sides” of a debate can speak volumes.

Over three subsequent posts, I’m going to elaborate on three reasons that we can see that Tour won, based upon a rhetorical analysis of the debate (plus a little science):

Tour focused on science, Farina focused on character assassination.

Tour posed reasonable scientific challenges which Farina refused to answer

Farina relied heavily upon playground tactics, appeals to authority, and citation bluffing.

We’ll tackle the first reason in the next post. But first a viewer’s warning.

Not for the Faint of Heart

As the debate wore on, at times both participants got quite intense; if you don’t like raised voices, don’t watch this debate. Frankly, as Farina spewed more and more venom against Tour, at times he (Tour) became animated, and even took a few shots at Farina’s chemistry knowledge. Tour’s words about Farina weren’t remotely comparable in intensity or number to Farina’s personal attacks on Tour. In my next post you will read a sampling of just some of those personal attacks. So if you are bothered by Tour’s irritation, ask yourself: Could you withstand such hatred and not get a little hot under the collar? James Tour is a great man…but like the rest of us, he is after all just a man. 

Regardless, it’s undeniable that this debate got a bit ugly and it reminded me why sometimes I don’t like debates. I do wonder if it was wise to give a platform to a person like Farina who was so thoroughly and unabashedly dedicated to making the night about assassinating James Tour’s character rather than investigating the science. Perhaps the moderator was given instructions to keep the debate going no matter how much nastiness and personal venom Farina threw at Tour. I really don’t know. But this is the kind of thing, unfortunately, that needlessly turns some people away from otherwise serious scientific conversations and dialogues over important questions about origins and science / faith issues. 

One Other Thing Is Clear

Farina is a skilled at quickly throwing out lots of arguments of varying quality and then using passive-aggressive maneuvers aimed at provocation. If you are the type of person who is susceptible to theatrics, intimidation, mockery, and character assassination, you might think Farina won. But once you climb out of Farina’s world of venom, invectives, mockery, and rapid-fire citation bluffs, you realize there isn’t much there. On substance, James Tour won the debate handily. Despite a few lapses here and there as the night wore on, overall he focused strongly on the science and made loads of good arguments that Farina did not address. That’s simply a fact.

But even if you didn’t know much about the science, you can easily tell who came armed with facts, knowledge, and a passion for seeking out the truth, and who came with a simple goal to destroy his opponent, at all costs. I’ll be back tomorrow.

You win some you lose some ; even Titans

When the body dials 911?

Dave Farina: team atheism's LVP? III

 “Well, Everyone Has to Have a Birthday” — How Professor Dave Botches Probability

William A Dembski 

This past Friday (May 19, 2023), Rice University professor James Tour “debated” (I use that word advisedly) YouTube personality and influencer David Farina (known as “Professor Dave”). The question up for discussion was “Are we clueless about the origin of life?” Tour took the position that the origin of life is a completely unsolved problem. Farina took the position that research in the origin of life is making good progress. Tour focused on the chemistry. Farina focused on discrediting Tour, calling him a liar and even a pathological liar over and over again. He also called Tour and his supporters clueless. (Does it take a pathological liar to falsely call someone a pathological liar? How clueless does one have to be to falsely call someone clueless?)

Farina’s antics got so wearisome that I could not watch the entirety of the debate. Indeed, I would not call it a debate. On the one hand, there was Tour trying to engage in substantive questions about prebiotic chemistry. And there was Farina, attacking him personally, both as someone completely unqualified to address the origin of life and as someone so biased by his religious beliefs as not to be trustworthy on scientific issues (Tour is unreserved in affirming his Christian belief). 

Citing Article Titles

The only science, such as it can be called, that I saw from Farina during the exchange was citing titles of origin-of-life articles that he claimed redressed the problems Tour was raising. But these seemed to be just arguments by irrelevant reference that fittingly complemented his arguments ad hominem. Farina gave no evidence that he understood the articles he was citing. It was as though origin-of-life researchers hostile to Tour had simply provided Farina with ammunition for the exchange.

My opinions are what they are, so form your own conclusions. Here is the exchange (“debate”). If you are able to watch the whole of it, give yourself brownie points for endurance. 

<iframe width="460" height="259" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pxEWXGSIpAI" title="Dr. James Tour vs Dave Farina | Are we clueless about the origin of life? #abiogenesis" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Farina’s performance in the exchange didn’t surprise me. It was consistent with what you see on his YouTube channel when he is promoting atheism, though I would say that in this case it was especially extreme. Was his scalding behavior intended to score points with his atheist supporters? Was it to boost his number of YouTube followers? I wonder how his performance would be interpreted by the unwashed middle, i.e., those who have no particular stake in the origin-of-life controversy. He was arrogant and cocky. I have to think that this didn’t help him with those outside his circle. But who’s to say in this age of social media where sensibilities get so warped. 

To Command an Audience

Tour admitted at the start of the exchange that this was his first debate. I’ve seen him give talks on not just the origin of life but also his own research, and he is able to command an audience, not only with his knowledge but also with his stature. I myself have debated atheists, such as Michael Shermer and Michael Ruse, but those debates were always respectful. To have your interlocutor, like Farina, hurling insult after insult at you has to be disconcerting. And it shifts the focus from the substance of what should be discussed to the credibility of the participants. Should Tour have attacked Farina for his limited chemistry background, which includes only a bachelor’s in chemistry and a master’s not in chemistry per se but in chemistry and science education? Tour is a Nobel laureate caliber chemist. 

Should Tour really have had to endure the constant jibes of Farina? Farina was at Rice at Tour’s invitation, so Tour’s natural inclination would have been to play the gracious host. He even started the exchange with a gift to Farina. But still, Farina should have been reined in. I suspect Tour was unprepared for the vitriol he encountered. I lay some of the responsibility for Farina’s continued shameless display on the moderator. Early on, the moderator should have told Farina that the audience by now had gotten the point that Farina thought Tour was a “pathological liar,” and that he should confine himself to the question that was the topic of the debate. The moderator should also have put an end to the constant interruptions of Tour by Farina.

Information and Probability

Two years ago I was interviewed by Tour for his YouTube channel about my work on information and probability. What prompted Tour to interview me was some probability arguments by Farina against him. Here’s my interview with Tour:

<iframe width="460" height="259" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/YAVHYhiVbyY" title="The Science &amp; Faith Podcast - James Tour &amp; William Dembski: Information Theory" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

At the 31-minute mark, Farina makes a probability argument dismissive of small probabilities in design inferences. When I reject Farina’s discussions of origin-of-life chemistry, it’s as an informed layperson and yet as a non-expert. But when I see how Farina botches his discussion of probability, a field in which I am expert, it suggests to me that either he is confused or he is so committed to his atheist agenda that he will bend any argument to serve that agenda. Farina seems obsessed with Tour, having posted nine YouTube videos against Tour.

At the 31-minute mark, Farina offers the following analogy to argue against inferring design on the basis of small probabilities:

Let’s say 10 people are having a get-together, and they are curious as to what everyone’s birthday is. They go down the line. One person says June 13th, another says November 21st, and so forth. Each of them have a 1 in 365 chance of having that particular birthday. So, what is the probability that those 10 people in that room would have those 10 birthdays? Well, it’s 1 in 365 to the 10th power, or 1 in 4.2 times 10 to the 25, which is 42 trillion trillion. The odds are unthinkable, and yet there they are sitting in that room. So how can this be? Well, everyone has to have a birthday.

But Farina here misses the key second component of design inferences: they do not just require improbability but also specification (namely, conformity to an independently given pattern). Farina’s pattern of birthdays is completely unspecified. Imagine, instead, that each of these ten people had reported that their birthday is January 1. Such a coincidence would be independently given in virtue of its short description, such as “everyone has the same birthday” or “everyone was born New Year’s Day.” It would therefore constitute a specification. By combining small probability and specification, this coincidence would therefore have called for an explanation other than chance. It would not, in that case, be enough to say, as Farina did, “Well, everyone has to have a birthday.”

Farina exudes confidence in the absence of deep knowledge and understanding. In fact, his expertise is quite limited. But he’s a quick study at getting down “industry” talking points. And he can marshal titles, abstracts, and authors associated with research articles to suggest that whatever he wants to assert has in fact been established or is on the verge of being established. But as a YouTube influencer, his main incentive is to play to the gallery. And as an apologist for atheism, his interest is not in advancing science but in using a warped materialistic conception of science as a club to beat religion and religious believers. 

I’ll be interested to see what the aftermath of this exchange will be. As of yesterday it had 11,000+ comments on its YouTube video. So it hit a nerve.

Dave Farina: team atheism's LVP? II

 Where’s the Chemistry? On the Origin of Life, James Tour Exposes Professor Dave as “Clueless”

Casey Luskin 

Last week, renowned Rice University chemistry professor James Tour debated popular YouTuber Dave Farina, aka “Professor Dave,” on the origin of life. The debate took place on the Rice campus in Houston, Texas, in Tour’s own lecture hall, and was Streamed live over the Internet. Unlike Dr. Tour, Farina isn’t a real professor. I suppose in today’s manner of speaking, we could say that he identifies as one, while lacking a PhD, a faculty position, or as it seems now, anything like the needed chemistry expertise to explain how life arose. 

One Thing Seems Clear

The topic of the debate was: “Are We Clueless About the Origin of Life?” After watching it, one thing seems clear: Professor Dave, like the origin-of-life field itself, is certainly “clueless” about any reasonable level of chemical detail about how the origin of life might have occurred.

The mic drop moments of the evening came after the opening statements when each debater was given the opportunity to ask his opponent questions. Tour focused on the science. The challenge he posed to Farina was simple: If Farina really thinks the origin of life has been explained, come to the blackboard and show the audience the chemistry that can produce, under realistic prebiotic conditions, five key elements of biology. Those are polypeptides, polynucleotides, polysaccharides, specified information, and a functional cell. 

In each case, Farina declined. 

Tour listed those five key elements of biology on the blackboard. At the end of each, after Farina had refused to come to the blackboard to explain the chemistry to the audience, Tour wrote “Clueless” next to the item. In another context this might have seemed harsh, but given that the agreed-upon question of the night was whether origin-of-life researchers are “clueless” about how life arose, it seemed entirely fair. 

A Scientist Comments

While Tour focused on the chemistry, Dave Farina spent most of the evening directing personal attacks against Dr. Tour, calling him a “liar” over and over again as well as many other invectives. We’ll discuss this distasteful aspect of the debate further in a subsequent post. A friend of mine who is a scientist watched the event and had this to say: 

I went into the debate knowing very little about Dave. I had no feel for his level of competence in chemistry or OOL issues. (I know Jim Tour, so I know he’s an expert chemist.) I was open to Dave being a self-taught expert on the issues, willing to push back on Jim’s dismissals with clear evidence.

In his opening volley, Dave made it clear that he wasn’t there to discuss chemistry, he was there to attack Jim. This is less than persuasive, since even if Jim was a donkey, there are prebiotic chemistry questions that need to be answered. It doesn’t matter who’s asking them. (It didn’t help that they were at Jim’s home campus, and Dave is calling him a fraud to his colleagues who know he’s not a fraud from direct experience.)

The turning point in the debate in Jim’s favor was when he wrote, in chalk, the precursor substances and the derived substance schemata. He then called Dave’s bluff: if we are not clueless on how this was made chemically, write the equations. “But mountains of peer-reviewed literature explain it…” Dave suggested. OK, then open those papers, find the equations, and write them here. Dave couldn’t.

It became clear to an outsider like myself that (1) the pathways and equations weren’t actually known, and (2) if they were known and actually in the papers, Dave couldn’t understand them. Or else he would have simply written down the relevant reaction equations.

A good portion of the audience seemed to realize this, too, and began to turn against Dave, prompting him at points to lash out at them. (Pro tip: In a debate, if you ever get to the point where you’re attacking your own audience, you’ve lost.) But I’m biased, so I checked the YouTube comments to see if my perceptions were widespread. I saw more than a few comments from atheists and those on Dave’s side saying he embarrassed them in the debate. Dave literally had nothing but personal attacks and pointing to words in paper titles and abstracts. Jim had actual chemistry. The comments section showed that even Dave’s own crowd saw this as a loss.

A Lost Opportunity

Indeed, Farina made many assertions about various scientific papers — and we’ll be discussing those soon. But Tour gave Farina a clear opportunity: If the paper explains how key aspects of life arose, then write on the board the chemical reaction equations that show how it happened. Farina would not even take the chalk. He couldn’t do it. If he could, he certainly would have done so.

At end of the debate, Farina finally took the chalk and wrote something on the blackboard. It was two words: “NOT CLUELESS.” It was intended as cheekiness, but it only served to highlight the fact that Farina was unable to explain details of the chemistry behind the origin of life. More importantly, it didn’t answer Tour’s request for a scientific explanation. Farina could not answer a single challenge from Tour. 

Professor Dave’s inability to provide the chemistry to back up his claims calls to mind the famous Wendy’s ad from the 1980s, where an elderly woman keeps asking: “Where’s the beef?” One might likewise ask Dave Farina: Where’s the chemistry? For that, don’t look to Professor Dave.

It was a turbulent evening, but that was the main takeaway from the debate. We’ll offer more analysis in subsequent posts.

<iframe width="460" height="259" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pxEWXGSIpAI" title="Dr. James Tour vs Dave Farina | Are we clueless about the origin of life? #abiogenesis" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Dave Farina: team atheism's LVP?

 Atheists Review Professor Dave’s Debate Performance

David Klinghoffer 

As someone who purports to educate others about science, Dave Farina has strengths and weaknesses. With 2.48 million subscribers on YouTube, Mr. Farina of “Professor Dave Explains” has a style that many find gratifying. As Professor James Tour said in their debate on the origin of life, Professor Dave has “tremendous reading skills” — he can read from a script, on YouTube or in a debate, with fluency and confidence. What Farina apparently can’t do, as Tour also noted, is “speak chemistry” on his own, when challenged and not using a script as a crutch. It also seems he can’t write chemical formulas, relevant to abiogenesis, on a blackboard with ease. Weak professional training may have something to do with his reliance on mindless sneering and insults. That’s my take.

          

“Do Better Next Time, Dave”

Of those who enjoy Farina’s style of juvenile personal abuse, I guess that most are atheists — by which I mean no disrespect to thoughtful atheists or agnostics! So I was curious what atheists made of his performance against Dr. Tour. In the comments section below the debate on YouTube, we find:

Keith Williams: “I’m an atheist, however, Farina’s smug and snide attacks on Tour throughout this debate, disgusted me. I may disagree with Tour’s mission, however, no one can ignore his considerable contribution to science.”

Artha Peterson: “I wonder why an actual abiogenesist won’t debate him [meaning, Tour]? That’s a serious question. Someone who actually can do the chemistry, unlike Dave. That would be the way to silence Tour on that topic forever. And yes, I am an atheist and yes I believe in abiogenesis.”

Lars Cade: “I’m an atheist and am already quite aware of the many ways in which Tour ignores or misrepresents data in his futile attacks on abiogenesis research, but he did far better in this debate than Farina. He laid out his definitions and stuck to the data and the topic. Because this is a very technical field, that’s all he needed to ‘win’ the debate. Do better next time, Dave.”

CaseAgainstFaith1: “Hi. I’m an atheist and I attended in person. Now I have not the slightest clue about the relevance of many things brought up during the debate. Like I have no clue about the 2,5 vs 3,5. I can say that Dave’s constantly calling Dr. Tour a liar and also insulting the audience was not helpful. Dr. Tour’s screaming wasn’t helpful either. But if I had to pick a winner I am afraid I would give it to Dr. Tour.”

thatwmckid: “I’m an atheist and I actually agree with James Tour.”

Wood: the once and future king of construction materials?

Scams as WMD. II

Artificial intelligence is the mother of actual incoherence?

 Breaking Google Bard

William A Dembski

I’ve finally started playing around with Google Bard. With self-referential sentences, it seems even more at sea than ChatGPT. Here is an exchange from May 18:

Me: Consider the following six sentences: This is the first sentence. Ignore this sentence. Why are these sentences being written down? The second sentence has exactly three words. The fifth sentence has at least twenty words. This, along with the preceding five sentences, have fewer than twenty times twenty words. Which of these last six sentences has a truth value and which are true?

Bard: The last six sentences have the following truth values:

The second sentence has exactly three words. (False)

The fifth sentence has at least twenty words. (True)

This, along with the preceding five sentences, have fewer than twenty times twenty words. (False)

The second sentence is false because it has 5 words, not 3. The fifth sentence is true because it has 22 words. The sixth sentence is false because the first five sentences have a total of 36 words, which is more than 20 times 20, which is 400.

Here is a table of the truth values of the last six sentences:

Sentence =Truth value

The second sentence has exactly three words.= False

The fifth sentence has at least twenty words. =True

This, along with the preceding five sentences, have fewer than twenty times twenty words. =False

Assessing Bard’s Confusion

To say that Bard is confused here would be generous. Here are the six sentences:

This is the first sentence.

Ignore this sentence. 

Why are these sentences being written down? 

The second sentence has exactly three words. 

The fifth sentence has at least twenty words. 

This, along with the preceding five sentences, have fewer than twenty times twenty words. 

Of these, only 1, 4, 5, and 6 have a truth value, and of these only 1, 4, and 6 are true. Sentence 5 is clearly false — it says of itself that it has at least twenty words, which it clearly doesn’t. Sentence 6 is slightly ambiguous in that it might be interpreted as saying that no one of the six sentences here has twenty times twenty (or 400) words, or that taken together they don’t have that many words. In either case, however, the claim is true. 

In fact, Bard assigns exactly the wrong truth values to sentences 4, 5, and 6. Note that the second sentence, i.e., “Ignore this sentence,” is indeed three words long as asserted in sentence 4 even though the second sentence itself, as an imperative, has no truth value. Bard also misses that the very first sentence, in asserting that it is the first sentence, has a truth value and is in fact true. 

Bard’s explanations add to the confusion. It says of sentence 2, falsely, that it has five words. It asserts of the fifth sentence that it has 22 words (where it gets this number is unclear — it’s not a number readily associated with the sentence lengths of the previous sentences). 

It does accurately calculate that “twenty times twenty,” as stated in sentence 6, is 400, but then it asserts this sentence is false because the previous sentences together have 36 words. In fact, the combined word count of sentences 1 thru 5 is 30. 

Foundering on Self-Reference

This is not the first time that I’ve broken these AI language generative systems (see, for instance, a similar move that I made against ChatGPT). These systems founder on self-reference. The fundamental problem with these systems is Gödelian. Kurt Gödel showed that formal systems like this are unable to extract themselves from these systems. In other words, to talk coherently about these systems requires going outside them. 

Human intelligence, by contrast, has the quality of self-transcendence. That, by itself, would suggest that we are not formal systems. It also suggests we have a quality that these systems seem destined never to achieve.

"..nor the Son."

 Mark ch.13:32 NASB"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." 

Our Trinitarian (and Modalist) friends wave away the obvious problem this verse creates for their doctrine by claiming that Jesus was speaking from the Son's then human standpoint.

 But is this view in harmony with the context of the verse itself ,lets have a look.The verse begins 

"But of that day and hour no one knows.."  

Obviously meaning no human knows (BTW was Jesus merely saying that no human at that time knew or that no human has ever known and will ever know.), thus if Jesus was speaking purely in terms of the Son's then human existence surely this part of the verse would have covered that. 

BTW :some trinitarians claimed that Jesus reclaimed the human body that he was supposed to have sacrificed upon his resurrection,which would mean that he is still human which, according to them, must mean that he is still not omniscient.

Then to illustrate the utter futility of anyone on earth attempting to calculate the 'day or hour' he continues.

",not even the angels of heaven.."

(again did Jesus mean that no angel presently knows or that no angel has ever and will ever know?) ,now, having made it clear that heaven itself was in the dark re:the Father's determination in this matter does it make sense for Jesus to belabor Earth's ignorance? Certainly what no angel knows no human would.

Why then not allow the verse to interpret itself 

"nor the Son,But the Father ALONE."  

i.e not even this eldest sibling in Jehovah's family of servants has ever known or will ever know. 

Acts1,6,7NASB " So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;"

Though his apostles were understandably curious about Jehovah's timing re:the Kingdom the resurrected (hence superhuman) Jesus indicated that the Father had chosen to keep the decision to himself.

 It does not seem that Jesus felt belittled by his Father's decision so it's odd that there are those who seem determined to take offense in his behalf.

 The bottom line then 

John ch.14:28 KJV "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. " 

PS. 0ne more thing,a good question deserving of a straight answer would be ,why does the Holy Spirit not know the day or the hour,better yet why is the Holy Spirit not even mentioned in this verse.I mean the verse (quite literally) mentions everyone else.