the bible,truth,God's kingdom,Jehovah God,New World,Jehovah's Witnesses,God's church,Christianity,apologetics,spirituality.
Monday, 31 July 2023
Saying we don't know in more than so many words.
Against Anonymous re Christ resurrection.
Anonymous: Watchtower Objections To A Bodily Resurrection
1. He would be taking His body off the altar, thus removing the ransom sacrifice.
Answer: It was the blood of Jesus which was shed for our redemption.
In the Old Testament sacrifices which typified Christ it was the blood which was carried into the Holy of Holies, not the body. Likewise it is Jesus' blood which paid the debt for our sins, (Hebrews 9:22)."
AservantofJEHOVAH Was it though only the blood
Hebrews ch.13:11ESV,"For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp.
All sin offerings are to be completely destroyed on the altar
John ch.6:51NIV"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give(not lend) for the life of the world.”"
Anonymous:Would not the taking back of his life be equally disastrous according to this Watchtower logic? But Jesus said he had power to lay down His life and take it again, (John 10:17-18).
Reclaiming His human life would violate the prophetic pattern set by the Law Jesus said I came not to remove but to fulfill Matthew 5:17
Matthew ch.20:28 NIV"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give(Not lend) his life(psyche) as a ransom for many.”
If Jesus had his human life restored to him he could not be said to have fulfilled the Law only by exchanging his human life for a superhuman one ,one not sustained by blood could the pattern set by the law be fulfilled
The wages of sin is a permanent end to our human life if Christ is a substitute for us then he must under go the same punishment
Isaiah ch.53:8NIV"He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken."
The only way for a substitutionary atonement to fulfill the law was for Christ to permanently lose his human life.
Anonymous:(2. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God," (1 Corinthians 15:50
Answer: The expression "flesh and blood" occurs only five times in the New Testament. We must derive our definition of its meaning from these occurrences. Webster's Dictionary is of no use here.
Examine the following references and see if the writers are not just as often speaking of "flesh and blood" as "fallen man" as they are of the physical body.
Matt. 16:13-17: "Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven." Is this speaking of the physical flesh, or corrupt, sinful man not revealing Christ's identity to Peter?"
The presupposition is that the two are mutually exclusive man is made of flesh whether he is sinful or not certainly Jesus flesh and blood was not sinful. Nor was the flesh and blood of the first Adam
All of Paul's declarations re:the resurrection are to be understood as applying first to Jesus and only afterward to those born again through him. Also they are justified prior to being born again so their flesh and blood is considered sinless just like their Lord's
Romans ch.8:30NIV"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
So they are justified while in the flesh legally they are on the same level as the two Adams.
So flesh and blood here has nothing to do with sin.
Anonymous:-Eph. 6:12: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood..." A case can be made either way in the interpretation of this text.
For instance, because Christians do not physically wrestle with their opposition, Paul may not be referring to the physical body, but rather that Christians wrestle against sinful corruption of man and the spiritual forces of evil influencing him.
Heb. 2:14: "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same...."
Here the text does refer to the physical flesh because Jesus did not take on Himself a sinful nature.
And Jesus flesh and blood is the primary issue he is the forerunner and the pattern for all others
Hebrews ch.6:19,20"We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."
I Cor. 15:50: "...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God...."
Paul is answering the question of what kind of body believers will have in the resurrection (vs. 35). It will be a "spiritual body" (vs. 44).
A "spiritual body" must be defined by the ONLY example we have of one, the body of Jesus.
So given that this first resurrection is only for those Justified in the flesh including Jesus ,it must be concluded that "flesh and blood" has nothing to do with sin
Hebrews ch.2:14-16NIV"Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.
So the distinction is not between the sinful and the sinless but between the human and the superhuman just as to legally be considered a substitute for humans he had to exchange is his superhuman perfection for human perfection so too for his substitutionary offering to conform to law he had to exchange his human perfection for superhuman perfection.
Who outranks whom?
Daniel ch.10:5,6NIV"I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude."
Some are claiming that this man that Daniel saw in vision is JEHOVAH himself. Does the context support such an opinion.
Daniel ch.10:12-14NIV"12Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. "
So how could anyone imagine that almighty God would be detained by a demon prince and then need to be rescued by one of his creations
Daniel ch.10:21NIV"but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince."
Some claim that the fact that this Holy angel list Michael as his only helper proves that he outranks Michael THE(Not a) prince of Daniel's people at Daniel ch.12:1 he is called THE( Not a) great prince.
Again we have to wonder as to how consistently are they prepared to adhere to this line of reasoning.
Psalms ch.54:4ASV"Behold, God is my helper: The Lord is of them that uphold my soul."
Where as the angel said that Michael was his only help the psalmist list God among those helping him. Was the psalmist trying to promulgate the Idea that he outranked God by his statement or the reverse.
Michael is one of the Chief princes thus he can't be the logos.
Why not, the title sar(prince) is also given to JEHOVAH in the book of Daniel.
Daniel ch.8:11KJV"Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. "
Compared to the demon princes that Govern the nations JEHOVAH and his archangel are the foremost princes.
In calling Michael the prince of JEHOVAH'S People see Daniel ch.10:21 the Angel links Michael to the angel at
exodus ch.23:20,21ASV"“Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him."
Later when Israel got into the land the prophet Joshua encountered an angel claiming to be the prince of JEHOVAH'S Army doubtless that same angel that bears JEHOVAH'S Name at exodus ch.23:20,21
Joshua ch.5:13-15NIV,"And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14And he said, Nay; but as prince of the host of Jehovah am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 15And the prince of Jehovah's host said unto Joshua, Put off thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so."
Many commentators claim that is a manifestation of the pre-human Christ we agree .
Sunday, 30 July 2023
Sit at my right hand?
Nincsnevem:The fact that 'Christ ascended to his heavenly throne' happened already in the 1st century, there was no need to wait until 1914 for this! According to Mark 'Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them,"
Revelation ch.12:5NIV"She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, "
According to the Revelation of the end times given to John the setting up of the kingdom and the casting down of Satan was to wait till the last days note the dragon has seven heads representing the seven political powers that have dominated the world Known to JEHOVAH'S people Rome was the sixth head so only in the time of the prophesied seventh head would the kingdom be set up
Revelation ch.17:10,11ESV"This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. "
As already mentioned revelation borrows heavily from Daniel and the post exilic books
So unsurprisingly Daniel also speaks of the kingdom as being set up in the time of the last set of kings.
Daniel ch.243,44ESV"As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage,c but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,"
The iron would correspond to Rome the sixth "king" which was in John's day and the mix of iron and clay would correspond to the seventh "king" which would follow John's day "in the days of those kings" would the Davidic kingdom be restored to the Son of David.
Hebrews ch.2:8KJV"Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him."
It was not yet time for the Davidic kingdom to be restored.
Acts ch.1:6,7KJV"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
The great apostasy.
However, the universal Christian Church could not have ceased for millennia in spite of all problems, because according to Christ, the forces of hell cannot prevail over it (Mt 16:18, Jude 24-25 cf. Eph 5:25-32). What is this Hades that will not prevail against the true church some underground realm of demons
Acts ch.2:31NIV"31Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead(Hades), nor did his body see decay."
So who lied: Jesus or the Watchtower? The New Testament also writes about the need for constant defense of faith (Jude 3), not about a complete
JEHOVAH Does not need to have a majority on his side to defend his faith he is a majority unto himself
Judges 7:4ASV"And Jehovah said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hand, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me. "
So this is non point the basics were still present among a tiny persecuted minority and of course JEHOVAH Would consider the mitigation of their circumstance and overlook their shortcomings
Acts ch.17:30ASV"The times of IGNORANCE therefore God overlooked; but NOW he commandeth men that they should all everywhere repent:"
JEHOVAH Has the power to raise the dead thus because some through no fault of their own die in ignorance it does not follow that such are eternally lost.
Anonymous" disintegration and theological breakdown after the 1st century until the 1870s. The original text of 2Thess 2:3 is not "great apostasy", but "falling away" or "defection" (without any further detail), and this is when the Antichrist also appears, who sits in the temple of God, deifying himself etc. None of this has happened yet."
1John ch.2:18NIV"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."
The apostolic era was ending and John was putting the brothers on their guard as to what was to follow he said that they already heard that the antichrist was coming ,where would they have heard that.
2Thessalonians ch.2:5,7NIV"Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8A"
Paul is saying that the man of lawlessness/antichrist(it's a collective)was already present but there was someone( also a collective) holding him back but he is hinting that the one holding him back would soon be taken away. So at 1John ch.2:18 John is echoing Paul's words at 2Thessalonians ch.2:5-7 but the situation was more urgent at 2John because John was the last apostle and was at the end of his life.
We know that Satan operates in a very subtle manner we should not expect that the antichrist is going to declare himself the antichrist of course he is going to pretend to be a representative of Christ
Matthew ch.7:15NIV"“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."
2Corinthians ch.11:14NIV"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light."
The anti Christ has come and as predicted has decieved the whole world.
Revelation ch.12:9KJV"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the WHOLE world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. "
It's the mainstream that is in darkness truth is somewhere outside the mainstream Jesus gave the following advice in separating those who are in the light from those who are in the dark.
John ch.13:34,35KJV"34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."
This love is not to be abrogated by any of the powers of the present age so you are not to murder your Christian brother regardless of which politician demands it.
The churches of Christendom have failed spectacularly to display this kind of love.
But by JEHOVAH'S Grace the brothers have proven ready to go to their deaths rather than violate Christ command. Thus fulfilling the sign.
Those violent among Daniel's people?
Daniel ch.11:14NIV" “In those times many will rise against the king of the South. Those who are violent among your own people will rebel in fulfillment of the vision, but without success."
The 1st century natural Jews wanted a political Messiah to make their nation great again. That's why they were blinded to the presence of the true Messiah and his representatives ,their uprising against the hated Roman coloniser ended in total disaster.
Christendom i.e both the "Christian" left and the "Christian" right have also fashion a hyper-political/ ultranationalist Christ in keeping with their preferences and ambitions. And have repeatedly demonstrated a willingness deploy kinetic means in hastening the arrival of their political version of Christ's kingdom.
But the angels warning goes for them as well.
Revelation ch.13:10KJVHe that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."
In defense of biblicism II
Anonymous:And this is where we arrive at biblicism, which strives to form the single, solid point of reference for belief from solely reading and interpreting the Scripture. They consider only the Scripture to be the Word of God, and they want to reveal the truth of the Scripture with only one method, denying the necessity of broader exegesis."
1peter ch.2:21NIV"To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps."
Where do we read of Christ quoting or referring to any rabbinic oral tradition or Greek philosopher in any of his many defenses. Our Lord always referred to the inspired writings as a defense so much so that he could make the following statement: John ch.5:45NIV"“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set."
He put the inspired writings above even his own oral declarations
John ch.17:17NIV"Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."
1Corinthians ch.4:6NIV"Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other."
Deuteronomy ch.17:18,19NIV"When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the Levitical priests. 19It is to be with him, and he is to read it all the days of his life so that he may learn to revere the Lord his God and follow carefully all the words of this law and these decrees"
The longest Psalm in the bible is an ode to the virtues of the inspired writings
Psalms ch.119:105NIV"Your word is a lamp for my feet,
a light on my path."
So biblicism is not a human invention it is a divine mandate.
How does knowledge increase.
Nincsnevem:The WT Society interprets Daniel's prophecy as having been fulfilled in the past 140 years of the Bible Researchers and Jehovah's Witnesses movement, and in the Society's publications. If Daniel only prophesied that his own book would be understood more deeply in the distant future, then the Society can only refer to this verse in relation to its calculations about the date 1914. But if Daniel was talking about the increase in knowledge, isn't it more likely that the prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century, when the collection of Hebrew Writings was supplemented by twenty-seven New Testament Greek Writings?
Here we see a contrast between the context driven approach of the brothers and the context averse approach of Mr nevem and his ilk
Daniel ch.12:4NIV"I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?”
Obviously Daniel is not interested in getting more writings that he did not understand he wants to understand the prophecies that he has received these things
9He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.
The increase knowledge of has to with understanding the wise will UNDERSTAND What Daniel did not in the first century there was an end of the world of sorts
Daniel ch.9:24ESV"“Seventy weeksc are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.d"
A reference to Jesus ministry death and resurrection that brought a real atonement replacing what was formally merely a pattern so there was a minor fulfillment of the angel's words but the tribulation that befell first century Israel was certainly not the greatest in human history.
The book of Revelation which borrows much of its prophetic imagery from the book of Daniel speaks of an even greater tribulation
Revelation ch.7:14NIV"I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
So the end times spoken of in Daniel would mainly be fulfilled in the in the distant future which is hinted by the angel
Daniel ch.12:1,2NIV"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt"
So not just the end of the temple and the mosaic law but the end of human rule the end prophesied at
Daniel ch.2:44NIV"“In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever."
Truly the greatest tribulation mankind would ever witness
Daniel ch.12;4NIV"But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”"
So this translation makes a clear link between the diligent effort of these many and increase of knowledge obviously the increase of inspired information can't be credited to effort of any man and would not automatically result in increased understanding of any prophecy as Daniel ch.12:4 shows
Thus the mere increase in inspired writings in the first century are not a satisfactory explanation of Daniel 12:8-10.
Which would only be satisfied by an increase in the understanding of end time prophecy not an addition of even more mysterious prophecies. This of course will call for adjustments to previously incomplete understandings
Saturday, 29 July 2023
Bringing "science" down from Olympus.
Douglas Axe: Science as a Human Enterprise
How wise is the faithful and wise servant.
The Society's leaders build their authority on this and therefore do not tolerate contradiction or independent thinking within the organization, therefore they call everyone to convert and obey them in everything.
Anyone who thinks that they have a superior command of the bible on any topic than me is free to demonstrate said superior knowledge our readers can judge for themselves whose interpretations are forced and whose are who is determined to let the bible speak for itself that is why I know that those selected by JEHOVAH are trustworthy. Like Socrates I have put all you biblical illiterates to the test and am satisfied that you have nothing to teach me. It is simply a lie to claim that the brothers have quibbled on fundamentals the fundamentals of our faith are regarding the nature of the one true God and his Messiah and the need to remain separate from the world the understanding of prophecy has ALWAYS been understood to be provisional that is why brothers used the term present truth. Indicating that overall their understanding of prophecy though imperfect was the best approximation available and that any better approximation must await JEHOVAH'S design.
https://aservantofjehovah.blogspot.com/2023/07/on-false-prophets-and-false-accusers.html?m=1
Scripture or tradition?
Anonymous:Tradition Is Not a Dirty Word
Protestants often quote the verses in the Bible where corrupt traditions of men are condemned (e.g., Matt. 15:2–6; Mark 7:8–13; Col. 2:8). Of course, Catholics agree with this.
I totally agree that tradition is not a dirty word however
"Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other."
The inspired scriptures are to supersede all else.
In defence of biblicism
Anonymous:Biblicism is right that the church is entirely under the law of Scripture and is only a church insofar as it listens to Scripture. But the dogmatician, as a member of the church, can only reach the hearing of the Word together with the church, not in a vacuum or arbitrarily chosen space, but within the church.
Matthew ch.7:21-23ESV"“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
Only the head of the church has the authority to declare it's boundaries and who is inside or outside of those boundaries. The fact that you are wealthier and more powerful as this world tends to evaluate matters means nothing to him he has provided a sign for sincere truth-seekers
Matthew ch.7:15NIV"“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? "
The violent oppression perpetrated by Christendom including her persecution of JEHOVAH'S People rule out any possibility that that tree was planted by the God and Father of Jesus Christ.
Matthew ch.15:13NIV"He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots."
JEHOVAH distinguishes himself from the false Gods and their acolytes by blessing his people with global peace that they simply cannot replicate
Isaiah ch.2:3,4ASV"3And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of JEHOVAH, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of JEHOVAH from Jerusalem.
4And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
Any God who cannot bring peace among his own people cannot be trusted to bring world peace.
In his days shall the righteous flourish, And abundance of peace, till the moon be no more.
8He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, And from the River unto the ends of the earth.
JEHOVAH'S Word or human councils.
Anonymous" The theologian cannot teach about the Scriptures if he has not first heard it in the church community. The Bible is read by the church and in it the church hears the Word of God. This means that when we read the Bible, we must also hear what the church has so far read and heard from the Bible."
Christians are supposedly disciples of Christ, is it the example that we received from our Lord to put tradition above the plain reading of the sacred text ,btw the text repeatedly makes it clear that is JEHOVAH'S creation and possession and not the property of any man or council of men.
Thessalonians ch.2:13NIV"And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe."
Mark ch.7:6-8 NIV"He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“ ‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’ b
8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”"
So this seems clear enough our Lord's council is that under no circumstance is any tradition to supersede JEHOVAH'S word.
JEHOVAH'S People and philosophy
Anonymous:"You will hardly be able to deal with scholasticism with the Watchowerite excuse that it is "philosophy". Anyway according to my belief "the philosophy" is usually not some satanic horrible thing in itself that has to be feared. According to Catholic Teaching, "faith seeks understanding, reason seeks faith""
The issue is not one of philosophy or not but rather the embrace of flagrant violations of the laws of logic as sophisticated thinking.
In his book intellectuals and society warned about the ability of intellectuals to create labrynthine mental constructs that tend to cut the mind off from feed back from the real world. It is simply not possible to abandon the laws of logic without impairing epistemology.
The common man's philosophy
Anonymous :"If you make the criterion of a religious truth the simple people's "common sense" compliance, indeed, not much would remain of Christianity, as it is full of miracles: they simply do not meet the "common sense". Now I don't mean the quick answer that "God can do it", but the question of how exactly. But it shows that if you have to explain miracles, even the wildest rationalist-biblicist can dismiss it by saying that it is supernatural, and it does not matter if it does not match formal logic, "
There are no miracles recorded in scripture that are any more puzzling and inexplicable than the one we each see in our mirrors every day yet we can be sure that like every other miracle
Performed by JEHOVAH Logical contradictions are not a factor in its explanation. The bible has satisfying answers for all the questions it raises none of which requires the embrace of logical contradictions JEHOVAH is sage not Mage
Jeremiah ch.10:12NIV"But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his WISDOM and stretched out the heavens by his UNDERSTANDING."
Letting the book speak for itself
Unknown: see a concrete example: The Scripture teaches that there is one God: yet it states both explicitly and implicitly that there are three subjects who are God.
Actually there are more than three subjects called God in the scriptures
The angels are called God
Psalms ch.8:5
Moses is called God
Exodus 7:1
At John 10:34 and Psalms 82:1-6 the rulers of the Hebrew nation are called God's
If there is one way of interpreting the scriptures that makes sense and that can be consistently applied and another that leaves matters even more puzzling after its application and that cannot be consistently applied. Occam's razor demands that the former be the preferred choice.
Friday, 28 July 2023
Against Nincsnevem XX
Nincsnevem:Regarding Matthew 24:15, this refers back to Daniel 9:27, thus the New Testament scripture indeed references the prophecy in question from the book of Daniel, but not in relation to the coming of Jesus Christ, but rather in connection with the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the world.
The destruction of Jerusalem was a divine judgment and thus was effected through Christ here is John's Warning Luke ch.3:16NIV"John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and FIRE."
Thus The outpouring of divine wrath by the risen Christ upon 1st century Jerusalem was a miniature fulfillment of his coming to judge all the world especially those gigantic religious bureaucracies and their enablers claiming to be Christians or spiritual jews. That there is a larger fulfillment is confirmed by the use of imagery from the book of Daniel in the post temple inspired book of revelation
Against unknown?II
This well known propaganda technique is called poisoning the well. It is a a variant of the ad hominem attack. You will notice that no actual argument is presented. Merely defamatory propaganda with the aim of dissuading the reader/listener from giving the opposing view a fair hearing.
The pitch in this case is based on the implied lie that the brothers have claimed prophet hood or infallibility or some such nonsense.
The fact of the matter is the Society's founders were cessationists who believed in a closed canon
:We have not the gift of prophecy Zion's Watch Tower, July 1883.
Zion's watchtower January 1908With regard to 1914: : "We are not prophesying; we are merely giving our surmises . . . We do nvot even aver that there is no mistake in our interpretation of prophecy and our calculations of chronology. We have merely laid these before you, leaving it for each to exercise his own faith or doubt in respect to them"
Another fact is none of those Ideas were thought up by the brothers they were based on commentaries that preceded them some long before Russell was born. The fact of the matter is that we believe that JEHOVAH is blessing our community of Ernest bible students in our research because with the benefit of hindsight we can see the emergence of a clearer picture of JEHOVAH'S Character and purposes from scripture and that the promises of religious cleansing and global peace that JEHOVAH indicated would be fulfilled upon keepers of his present truth are quite frankly being fulfilled only upon JEHOVAH'S servants,and not because we think our leaders are prophets or saints or infallible.
Isaiah ch.2:3,4ASV"3And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of JEHOVAH, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of JEHOVAH from Jerusalem.
4And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Daniel ch.12:8-10ASV"And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my lord, what shall be the issue of these things? 9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end. 10Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand"
The argument that Satan can cause these prophesies to be fulfilled on those he confuses but that Jesus cannot cause them to be fulfilled on those he enlightens is tantamount to arguing that Satan is wiser than Jesus.
Why every Friday is a black Friday for Darwinists.
Fossil Friday: Another Prediction Vindicated
Against nincsnevem XIX
The nineteenth installment in my responses to Mr.Nevem
Nincsnevem5:49 AM
This is really easy to answer: according to his human nature, Jesus is a Messianic King, according to his human nature he is the heir to David's throne, and of course Jesus' humanity is not God, not YHWH. Jesus' human and divine natures are distinct but inseparable.
Reply
aservantofJehovah6:31 AM
"This is really easy to answer: according to his human nature, Jesus is a Messianic King, according to his human nature he is the heir to David's throne, and of course Jesus' humanity is not God, not YHWH. Jesus' human and divine natures are distinct but inseparable.,"
Here is the thing Mr.nevem the verse makes no mention of a nature but of a person so if this person( not nature) is equal to his Father is not the most high or he is his own Father stop putting words in the prophet's mouth
Also there is a small matter of the Holy Spirit who is not the Father of Jesus according to the Nicene creed and not incarnated if he is equal to the Father then obviously the Father of Jesus is not the most high.
So your fudge fails the person (not the nature) of the Father is greater than the person of the Son and if the spirit is a person greater than the person of the spirit.
Luke ch.1:32NIV"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, "
A similar problem exists with Matthew ch.24:36
Matthew ch.24:36KJV"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my FATHER ONLY. "
Why would the unincarnated Spirit not know the day or hour
And if you could just put the smug away for a minute(because it is clearly impeding your judgment) you will see that the question was mainly about the identity of the most high because, by definition the most high can have no equals so who is this unequalled Father of Jesus.
So it really doesn't matter whether the human Jesus was less than his father if there is a divine Jesus that is equal to his Father his Father is not the MOST HIGH as per the dictionary definition of that term
Against Nincsnevem XVIII
Daniel 12:4 is not a prophecy about the Daniel 12:4 is not a prophecy about the evolving doctrines of a denomination would be created in the 19th century, but on the one hand, the book of Daniel basically refers to Antiochus' persecution, and on the other hand, in a biblical context, "the last time", the messianic era itself, which is the last era in order, and therefore last, because there will be no more periods, no third covenant, it also does not apply to the 20th century. doctrines of a denomination would be created in the 19th century, but on the one hand, the book of Daniel basically refers to Antiochus' persecution, and on the other hand, in a biblical context, "the last time", the messianic era itself, which is the last era in order, and therefore last, because there will be no more periods, no third covenant, it also does not apply to the 20th century.
This of course is the opinion of men who refuse to let the bible speak for itself let us instead here from a real expert on the subject
Matthew ch.24:15NIV"“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet DANIEL—let the reader understand—"
This of course is well after Antiochus the book of revelation written long after the Fall of the temple borrows a lot of its imagery from the book of Daniel
Revelation ch.13:2NIV"beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. "
Compare Daniel Chapter 7:1-8:
Daniel ch.12:8-10NIV"I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
9He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand"
Amen and Amen
Against unknown?
Corinthians 2:14-15, which says that "a physical man does not receive the things of God," but that "the spiritual man examines indeed all things." The JW should agree that what Paul means is that a physical man without God's
The word spirit can have a number of different usages it can refer to a spirit person but it need not. It can also refer to the inner mental life that might be inaccessible to onlookers see Hebrews ch.4:12 or indeed it may refer to the Holy Spirit. Here the contrast is between mindsets there is a mindset that results from submitting to/being led by the spirit and it is being contrasted with the mindset that results from submitting to/being led by the flesh JEHOVAH doesn't give his spirit to Just anyone he gives to to those hungering for it spiritual people
1Corinthians ch.2:11KJV"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit(mind) of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit(mind )of God."
1Corinthians ch.2:12KJV"Now we have received, not the spirit(Mindset) of the world, but the spirit(mindset) which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God"
So we are not dealing with a contrasting of essential natures because both the fleshly man and the spiritual man have the same essential nature but the spiritual man has chosen to pursue a relationship with JEHOVAH And the fleshly man has chosen to pander to the flesh
This spiritual mindset is not an essential nature it can be lost if not carefully curated likewise there is always the hope that one with a fleshly mindset can come to realise futility of attempting to satisfy the flesh and begin a sincere search for the truth.
Matthew ch.11:25NIV"At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. "
Unknown:without the Spirit will not accept the truth of God's word. Yet the contrast here is between the exact same two words (in Greek as well as in English, as can be shown using the JWs' Kingdom Interlinear Translation if necessary). Clearly, the "spiritual" man in this text has not ceased to have physical existence; the point is that the ultimate source of his life is different from that of the (merely) physical man. In like manner the "spiritual" body of 1 Corinthians 15:44 is not an immaterial body,
we know that all words can be used in a variety of senses so is the word pneumatikos/spiritual being used in the same sense at both 1corinthians ch.15:44 and 1Corinthian ch.2:14,15 one way to tell would be to carefully examine the respective contrasts that are being made
At 1Corinthians ch.2:14,15 it is two mindsets and not two essential natures that are being contrasted
While at 1Corinthians Ch.15:44 it is the essential nature of the body that is sown that is contrasted with the essential nature of the body that is raised up.
Unknowned:but one that is energized or enlivened by the Spirit in a way that it was not beforehand. And so this verse also is a prooftext for, and not against, the physical resurrection of Jesus.
It does seem that Paul was alluding to a change of essential natures though
1Corinthians ch.15:45KJV"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
It is important to note both what is said and what isn't said
It is said that the man was MADE a soul it is not said that the man received a soul so the man is a soul rather than possessing a soul
The same statement is made of the lower lifeforms they too are referred to as psyche/nefesh
Genesis ch.1:21KJV"And God created great whales, and every living creature(Psyche/Nefesh) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good."
Likewise it is not said that the last Adam received a spirit but that he BECAME a spirit the same word is used of angels
1Chronicles ch.18:21ASV"there came forth a SPIRIT, and stood before JEHOVAH, and said, I will entice him. And JEHOVAH said unto him, Wherewith?"
Just as the first Adam was not a Soul before becoming such neither was the last Adam spirit before BECOMING such
Think of Fred who goes to medical school and becomes a doctor there is no concrete distinction between Fred and the doctor that he has BECOME thus if Fred dies it would be understood that the doctor that he had become died.
And what does it mean for a soul to die it simply means that that soul has RETURNED to its pre-creation state:
Genesis ch.3:19NIV"By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until YOU(not your body) RETURN to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust YOU(not you body) are
and to dust YOU(not your body) will RETURN.”
Though the bodies possessed by spirit beings are essentially intangible ,invisible and certainly not humanoid. they can materialise bodies that look indistinguishable from humans
Luke ch.24:4ASV"And it came to pass, while they were perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel: "
Such materialisations would not only explain his tangibility on occasion but also his mysterious appearances and disappearances
Luke ch.24:31 ASV"31And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he VANISHED out of their sight."
Luke ch.24:31ASV"And as they spake these things, he himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. "
Thus the fact that Jesus could be visible and tangible if he chose to (at least before his glorification)
Does not disprove that his essential nature was spirit but his appearances and disappearances at times in forms that were not recognisable to his disciples
Suggest that he had exchanged his human perfection for superhuman perfection.
John ch.20:14NIV" At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus."
The best Son a mother ever had and she did not recognise him.
John ch.21:4NIV"4Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus."
They had known him their whole lives, if there is one person that you would think would be easily recognisable to friend and foe alike it would be Jesus Christ.
2Corinthians ch.5:1NIV"For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands."
Note there is no remodelling of the earthly house it is destroyed and replaced by a heavenly one the prospect of human perfection is exchanged for superhuman perfection.
Thursday, 27 July 2023
Color by design
Intelligent Design in Color Vision — A Gift to Us
The labrynth.
Against Christendom's theology
Against nincsnevem XVII
THE seventeenth of my responses to Mr.nevem
Nincsnevem:What does the "heavenly body" mentioned here mean? The text refers to the diversity of creatures on earth and in heaven as evidence of God's infinite power. So the "heavenly bodies" are, as written there: the Sun, the Moon, and the stars, i.e., celestial bodies. Remember back to the very first chapter of the Bible: "And God said, 'Let there be lights in the vault of the sky...'"
We see the trend of arguing by assertion rather than making a case continues here is the context of 15:40
1Corinthians ch.15:36-38ESV"But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body"
So nothing to do with the nonliving creation but the living Paul says that JEHOVAH would not need to reinvent wheel there are already models of living forms in heaven and earth each with its own glory angels are routinely compared to stars in the bible the resurrected sons of God are also compared to stars
Job ch.38:4-7ESV"On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
Daniel ch.12:3NIV"Those who are wise a will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. "
Revelation ch.22:16 NIV"“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you a this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
Against nincsnevem XVI
The sixteenth of my responses to Mr.nevem
Since you don't answer directly, I will do it for you: the term "spiritual body" ("sōma pneumatikos") is NOT used in the Bible for angels, since they do not have a "spiritual body",
First this is an argument from silence . One can't logical deduce anything from silence
1Corinthians ch.15:40ESV"For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another."
There are (present tense Heavenly bodies) so this is not speaking of what is to come but
Of what is now there are superhuman beings with bodies suited to a superphysical way of life e.g angels
1 John 3:2 also does not say anything about the resurrected ones becoming similar to the spirits in nature,
So what does it say
1John ch.3:2ESV"Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is."
We shall see him as he is and be like him
Exodus ch.33:20ESV"But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” "
It is impossible for humans to see JEHOVAH as he is and live
We understand all stated facts about JEHOVAH be permanent and unchangeable
By way of a second witnesses
1Timothy ch.6:16ESV"who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has EVER seen or CAN see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen."
This is why the human i.e flesh and blood CANNOT Inherit the superhuman
Flesh and blood refers to the human which is mortal by definition
Spirit refers to the superhuman only the superhuman can withstand that light
Nincsnevem"we do know what we will look like in the resurrection" - We know that it will truly be OUR OWN body (Philippians 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:38), not something transformed into an angel.
If we were transformed into angels we would know our own bodies the fact of the matter is that from birth we have changed bodies annually with no consciousness of having changed bodies so this is yet another non-argument the body that those in line for a resurrection in the superphysical realm will receive is adapted for life in that realm
And of course being a necessary element of ourselves we will recognise it as a necessary part of ourselves.
Phillipians ch.3:21NIV"who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."
Any body the person is raised up in would be his body we've had dozens of bodies over the course of our life and yet we think of them all as our one body there is no need to incorporate any of the substance from our corpse for the resurrected body to be OUR body
2Corinthians ch .5:1NIV"1For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. "
The old is destroyed to make way for the new
"where in SCRIPTURE does it say the angels don't have bodies" - Among others where Jesus says that the spirits do not have "bones and flesh" (Luke 24:39), but he does, hence He is not a spirit. Also in the places cited above.
More circular logic presume that all bodies are made of flesh and bones or that spirit here means spirit creature not an apparition and use your presuppositions as evidence
There are superphysical bodies. Physical bodies are not the only kinds of bodies referred to in scripture
1Corinthians ch.15:40NIV"There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. "
Each with its own glory Mr.Nevem
Nincsnevem:Why were the wounds of his crucifixion visible on Jesus?
As I have explained spirit creatures are able to materialise and dematerialise physical forms through which the communicate with humans
Genesis 6:4NIV"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."
Here are spirit beings materialising bodies capable of copulating with human females and producing offspring.
Reproducing some bodily scars would be child's play for such a being when I called spirit beings superhuman that is what I meant
When Jesus was appearing and disappearing he was always fully clothe sandals and all obviously he materialised the clothes as well
Against Nincsnevem XIV
My fourteenth installment of responses against Mr. Nevem
Similarly, the Scripture explicitly and decisively teaches the pure spirituality of God, not only in an inductive way, attributing understanding and will to Him, but by presenting God as a sovereign power over matter. Moreover: God is not like humans: He has no body, He is not visible, cannot be represented by an image, He is the father of spirits (Ex 33:20, Deut 4,1–6, Is 31,3, 40:18; Heb 12,9); He is simply a spirit: "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." (Jn 4,24; cf. Lc 24,39 2 Cor 3,7 1 Tim 6,16)
All spirit would imply is invisible and intangible to humans there is no implication of incorporeality and corporeality does not imply a humanoid body which of course was designed for the physical world there heavenly bodies
Very distinct from anything in the physical world
1Corithians ch.15:40NIV"There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another"
Exodus ch.33:20 ESV"But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”"
So he has a form just not one visible to humans
Deuteronomy ch.4:1-6ESV"“And now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the rulesa that I am teaching you, and do them, that you may live, and go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you. 3Your eyes have seen what the LORD did at Baal-peor, for the LORD your God destroyed from among you all the men who followed the Baal of Peor. 4But you who held fast to the LORD your God are all alive today. 5See, I have taught you statutes and rules, as the LORD my God commanded me, that you should do them in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 6Keep them and do them, for that will be your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, who, when they hear all these statutes, will say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people"
Again nothing to see here.
Isaiah ch.31:3ESV"The Egyptians are man, and not God,
and their horses are flesh, and not spirit.
When the LORD stretches out his hand,
the helper will stumble, and he who is helped will fall,
and they will all perish together."
Suggesting that flesh and spirit are mutually exclusive
But nothing about corporeality
Hebrews ch.12:9ESV"Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?"
Circular logic presume that superphysical means incorporeal
And use presumption as evidence
But these spirits are in danger of death if they disobey not torture.
2Corinthians ch.3:7ESV"Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, "
Nothing about the subject
You get basically more arguing in a circle.