Litigious:he Hebrew word qanah is highly flexible and context-dependent. While qanah can mean "create" or "acquire," its usage in Proverbs 8:22 more likely conveys the idea of "possessed" or "acquired," as seen in translations like the ESV, NASB, and KJV. This aligns with the understanding of Wisdom as an eternal, inherent attribute of God, not a created being.
Myself:JEHOVAH innate Wisdom has no beginning and of course is not an acquistion the only way so no Proverbs ch.8:22 cannot be referring to anything eternal or innate. The logic of the context suggest a discrete expression of that wisdom such as would be an acquisition and would be the first of JEHOVAH'S Work
Litigious:• Genesis 4:1: qanah is used to mean "acquired" or "gotten," not necessarily "created." Eve says, "I have acquired [qanah] a man from the LORD," which clearly refers to receiving Cain, not "creating" him in an ultimate sense.
Myself:Cain was not a perpetual possession but was acquired at a discrete point in time and did not exist eternally. Her decision was necessary though not sufficient in bringing about the existence of cain
Litigious• Deuteronomy 32:6: qanah describes God's relationship with Israel as their "Father" or "Owner," indicating covenantal possession, not literal creation.
Myself:He was the founder of a nation that did not previously exists and likely would never had existed if he had not intervened so no cana does not mean innate or perpetual possession here either, but the bringing forth of that which did not previously exists.
Litigious:Even ancient Jewish sources, such as the Targum and Philo of Alexandria, understood Wisdom in Proverbs 8 as eternal and intrinsic to God. Philo describes Wisdom as God's "first-born" (prōtotokos), but not in a created sense—it is an eternal manifestation of God's nature.
Myself:Again cana according to your own examples does not allude to any innate or perpetual possession but the creation or acquisition of what was not previously owned or existing.
Litigious:The verb chuwl (חול) does not inherently mean "created" in the ontological sense. Instead, it often refers to "originating" or "manifesting." For example:
• Psalm 90:2: "Before the mountains were brought forth (yalad), or ever you had formed the earth and the world..." This does not mean the mountains were literally birthed but figuratively describes God's creative activity
Myself:That is my point, when birth language is used of JEHOVAH It always means create literally never birthed literally,
Litigious:• Micah 5:2: The Messiah’s "goings forth" (motsa'ot) are described as "from eternity" (miqedem). Similarly, Proverbs 8:24-25 speaks of Wisdom’s manifestation in creation without implying its ontological beginning.
Myself:According to strong's miqedem can and indeed usually means from old not necessarily from eternity. Olam also basically means hidden time and need not imply eternity and as this particular acquisition is spoken of as having a beginning. Eternity does not fit the context.
Wisdom is described poetically as "brought forth" to illustrate its active role in creation, not its origin. The broader context of Proverbs 8 portrays Wisdom as God's eternal attribute, foundational to all creation, aligning with John's depiction of the Logos (John 1:1).
Myself: or The fact that the creation was the beginning of the manifestation of JEHOVAH'S Wisdom which seems to make more sense, no one can read JEHOVAH'S Mind the only way that his Wisdom can be known is by observing expressions of it.
see Romans ch.1:20
Litigious:The Greek word archē (ἀρχή) has multiple meanings, including "beginning," "ruler," "origin," or "source." Its precise meaning is determined by context. In Revelation 3:14, the phrase hē archē tēs ktiseōs is better translated as "the source [or origin] of creation," not "the first created being."
Myself:Well you assert that he is the source you have not demonstrated that note that he is the arche of THE GOD'S creation why is the expression "the God" in the third person if he is the God who is the source of the creation. And given John's use of arche at 1John ch.1:1 and throughout the book of revelation . And the fact That he used archon at revelation ch.1:5 when he wanted to put Christ status as ruler to the fore. A mere assertion is not sufficient to overturn the king James verdion [good trinitarians like yourself] on this one
Litihious:• Colossians 1:16-17: Paul emphasizes that "all things" (πᾶντα) were created through Christ, and Christ existed "before all things" (pro pantōn), clearly excluding Him from the category of created beings.
Myself :The fact that all things were created "dia" christ indicates that he is not the source of the power and wisdom in the creation, you will note that propositions like "en" and "dia" are NEVER used of JEHOVAH'S Role in the creation so while Christ is exempt from the rest of the creation that took place THROUGH Him he is not exempt from JEHOVAH'S Creation.
The word all is routinely used in scripture with sensible exceptions.
Example Genesis ch.3:20NKJV"And Adam called his wife’s name Eve,[g] because she was the mother of ALL living." This does not exclude Eve or Adam from being numbered among the living.
Litigious:• John 1:1-3: The Logos (Jesus) is described as existing "in the beginning" (en archē), not as having a beginning, and "all things" were made through Him. If all things were made through Him, He cannot be part of the "all things" created.
Myself:Again the Bible speaks of the creation as occurring "dia" JEHOVAH Dia suggest an intermediary role not a source or supreme authority.
John ch.1:17NKJV"For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."
Of course Moses was not the source of the law but the channel through which the law was transmitted.
1John ch.1:1 NKJV"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—"
"Apo arkhe definitely means from a definite beginning without exception not so much as one.
Litigious:Thus, Revelation 3:14 describes Christ as the source or origin of creation, consistent with His divine role as Creator, not a created being.
Myself:You are repeating yourself we dealt with this unsubstantiated assertion already he is arkhe of someone else's creation the expression the God is in the third person not the first ,John consistently uses arkhe for beginning in Revelation and archon for prince.
Litigious:While Paul identifies Christ as the "Wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24), this is metaphorical, not ontological. The personification of Wisdom in Proverbs 8 poetically describes an attribute of God, not a separate created entity.
Myself:Of course it's metaphorical he is manifestation of JEHOVAH'S Wisdom and power.
Especially in terms of JEHOVAH'S Resurrection of him a manifestation of both JEHOVAH'S Power and wisdom.
JEHOVAH of course is the immortal God and thus was never resurrected from the dead.
Roman's ch.1:22,23NIV"lthough they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles."
Note our brother Paul states that it is foolish to even assert that JEHOVAH Outwardly resembles a mortal man let alone could ever have the nature of one JEHOVAH Cannot die and thus cannot be resurrected.
Litigious:• Colossians 1:15-17: Christ is the "image of the invisible God, the firstborn (prōtotokos) of all creation." The term prōtotokos does not mean "first created" (prōtoktistos). Instead, it signifies preeminence and supremacy over creation, as demonstrated in Psalm 89:27, where David is called God's "firstborn," though he was not literally the firstborn son of Jesse.
Myself:You know who else is the icon of JEHOVAH
1Corinthians ch.11:7NKJV"For a man indeed ought not to have his head veiled, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man."
And if David is called firstborn of JEHOVAH why mention Jesse as if he is JEHOVAH, David was indeed the first in the line of kings leading to the Messiah, even Jesus is called Son of David. Son of God was a title held by the messianic kings of Israel 2Samuel ch.7:14ASV"I will be his father, and he shall be my son: if he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men;"
So not just David but his royal lineage up to shiloh was meant.
Litigious:Christ's role as Creator in Colossians 1 and John 1 underscores His divine nature. The personification of Wisdom in Proverbs 8 anticipates the New Testament's fuller revelation of Christ as the eternal Logos.
Myself:The propositions "en" and "dia" which are NEVER EVER used of JEHOVAH regarding his role in the creation indicates that Christ is JEHOVAH'S Created instrument just as the use of the preposition "dia" with regard to Moses transmission of the law indicates that he was JEHOVAH'S Instrument and not the source of the law.
1Corinthians ch.8:6ASV"yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him."
Among the examples of dia being used to denote instrumentality by thayers lexicon we have John ch.1:3 ,1Corinthians ch.8:6,Hebrews ch.1:2,colossians ch.1:16
https://biblehub.com/thayers/1223.htm
The assertion that "qanah" in Proverbs 8:22 necessitates creation rather than possession is unfounded. The Hebrew verb qanah is versatile, meaning "acquire," "possess," or "create," depending on the context. The key point in Proverbs 8:22 is the poetic nature of the text, which uses personification to describe Wisdom. Wisdom, as presented here, reflects God's eternal attribute rather than a created being. Ancient Jewish interpretations, such as by Philo of Alexandria, understood qanah in Proverbs 8:22 as referring to God’s eternal possession of Wisdom, not its creation. This interpretation aligns with the biblical theme of God’s immutable and intrinsic attributes.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Cain and Genesis 4:1, the claim that qanah signifies a creation event is incorrect. While Eve states that she "acquired" a man from the Lord, this reflects her acknowledgment of God’s providence in granting her offspring rather than an assertion of creating Cain herself. The verb does not intrinsically imply creation ex nihilo but acquisition or receipt within the broader biblical use.
In Deuteronomy 32:6, the application of qanah to describe God as the one who "acquired" Israel reinforces the sense of covenantal possession rather than literal creation. The text focuses on God's relational and redemptive role in forming Israel as His people, underscoring His ongoing guidance and ownership rather than a one-time creative act.
The claim that Wisdom in Proverbs 8 cannot be eternal because "qanah" indicates acquisition misunderstands the poetic and metaphorical language of the passage. The portrayal of Wisdom as "brought forth" (Hebrew: chuwl) in verses 24–25 aligns with its role in creation, not its origination. The broader context highlights Wisdom's presence with God "before the foundation of the world," consistent with the eternal nature of divine attributes.
The argument against Christ as the "source" of creation in Revelation 3:14 based on the Greek term archē is flawed. While archē can mean "beginning," its usage in Revelation 3:14 must be interpreted contextually. Christ, described as "the beginning of God's creation" (hē archē tēs ktiseōs), refers to His preeminence and authority as the originator of creation, not as the first created being. John's use of archē elsewhere, such as in John 1:1 ("In the beginning was the Word"), further supports this interpretation. The use of archē to denote source or origin is consistent with its semantic range in both biblical and extrabiblical Greek.
The assertion that "dia" always indicates instrumentality and thus subordination oversimplifies the Greek preposition. While dia often conveys agency or mediation, it does not inherently denote a lesser role. For example, in Romans 11:36, Paul states that "all things are from [ex], through [dia], and to [eis] God," attributing ultimate causality to God. This demonstrates that dia can describe the agency of a divine person without diminishing their divinity. In John 1:3, "all things came into being through [dia] Him," the Logos (Christ) is depicted as the agent of creation, emphasizing His active role in bringing all things into existence.
The attempt to subordinate Christ’s role in creation by appealing to Colossians 1:16–17 is inconsistent with the text. Paul explicitly states that "all things" (ta panta) were created "in Him," "through Him," and "for Him," and that "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." The repeated emphasis on "all things" leaves no room for exceptions, including Christ Himself. The assertion that all must allow for exceptions lacks textual support, particularly when Paul’s context excludes Christ from the created order by affirming His preexistence and sustaining role.
DeleteThe comparison to Moses as an intermediary in the giving of the Law (John 1:17) misapplies the analogy to Christ’s role in creation. While Moses served as a human intermediary, Christ is portrayed as the divine agent through whom all creation came into being. The use of dia for Moses' role in delivering the Law does not equate to the creative agency described in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, where Christ is presented as preexistent and integral to the act of creation itself.
The claim that Christ is not eternal because He is described as the "firstborn" (prōtotokos) in Colossians 1:15 misinterprets the term. In biblical usage, prōtotokos often signifies preeminence or rank rather than chronological order. For example, in Psalm 89:27, David is called God’s "firstborn," denoting his exalted status among kings, not his birth order. Similarly, Colossians 1:15 emphasizes Christ's supremacy over creation, as further clarified in verse 18, where He is described as "firstborn from the dead," signifying His preeminence in the resurrection.
Finally, the argument that John 1:1–3 portrays Christ as a subordinate agent because "dia" is used fails to account for the unique relationship between the Father and the Son in Johannine theology. John 1:1 establishes the Logos as existing "in the beginning" and as fully divine ("the Word was God"). The Logos's role as the agent of creation underscores His divinity, as only God is Creator (Isaiah 44:24). The preposition dia in John 1:3 does not diminish Christ’s divine status but highlights the unity and distinction within the Godhead.