Litigious: The claim that "firstborn" implies membership in creation is not supported by the grammar or broader scriptural context. If Paul intended to communicate that Christ is a part of creation, he could have used a term like "πρωτόκτιστος" (protoktistos, "first-created"), a term never used in the New Testament. Early Church Fathers, such as Athanasius and Basil, explicitly noted this distinction to refute Arian interpretations. The genitive construction in Colossians 1:15 functions relationally, not partitively. Christ is "firstborn" over creation, emphasizing His authority and preeminence, much like a firstborn son would have authority in a family context.
Myself:Prototokos would satisfy Paul's needs because no one has provided me with a single exception to protokos being Part of the group of which he is protokos or of a different kind to his forebearer not one.
Jesus having authority over the group of which he is firstborn and being of the same kind as his siblings are not mutually exclusive, thayers clearly makes prototokos colossians ch.1:15 a partitive genitive the fact that the creation occurs "dia" him proves conclusively that he is not JEHOVAH.
litigious:The assertion that Christ cannot be divine because Jehovah is called "the Most High" (Luke 1:32) misunderstands the Trinitarian doctrine: The title "Most High" refers to God’s supremacy over all creation, not an exclusion of the Son or Spirit from the Godhead. In John 1:1, the Word is explicitly called God ("theos"), co-eternal with the Father. Psalm 83:18 affirms that Jehovah is supreme, but this does not exclude Christ’s divinity. Instead, the New Testament reveals Christ as sharing in Jehovah’s divine identity, as seen in Philippians 2:9-11, where every knee bows to Jesus and every tongue confesses Him as Lord (kyrios), the Greek equivalent of Yahweh.
Myself:his FATHER is supreme according to the inspired scriptures therefore his Father Alone is the Most High God ,this falsifies utterly the claim that their are two others who are coequal to his God and Father,
Litigious:Isaiah 44:24 states that Jehovah created "alone." However, this does not exclude Christ’s role, as the New Testament reveals the plurality within the Godhead. Jehovah is one God, and Christ, as the Word, is His eternal agent in creation. The New Testament consistently attributes creation to Christ (John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2), affirming His equality with the Father in essence and work.
Myself:Again no creation can be considered a suppliment to JEHOVAH because ALL of the energy and information in said creation came out of his form so JEHOVAH'S Using a prior creation to produce a later one is no violation of isaiah ch.44:24 his receiving aid from an uncreated being would definitely be a violation of that scripture.
LitihiousInconclusion, the arguments presented fail to undermine the clear biblical testimony of Christ’s divinity, preeminence, and role as Creator. The use of "πρωτότοκος" in Colossians 1:15 signifies His supremacy over creation, not His inclusion within it. The Trinitarian understanding harmonizes the full scriptural witness, affirming Christ as fully divine, co-eternal with the Father, and distinct in personhood.
It depends on what one means by divinity,Christ is definitely superhuman as are the holy angels the angels are called gods Psalm ch.8:5,
But the Bible is strikingly clear about the utter supremacy of the God and Father of Jesus.
Matthew ch.24:36KJV"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. "
The incarnation fudge does not work here because the unincarnated spirit is not even mentioned the verse is quite clear the FATHER ALONE is supreme and after all that is the meaning of the word supremacy and equality are mutually exclusive.
Now among the examples of " dia" being used in the sense of instrumentality by an author in thayers lexicon we have John ch 1:3 ,1Corinthians 8:6,colossians ch 1:16, Hebrews ch.1:2 .
https://biblehub.com/thayers/1223.htm
The claim that "prototokos" in Colossians 1:15 makes Christ part of creation is flawed, both grammatically and contextually. Your argument that "prototokos" always implies being part of the group is based on an overly narrow reading of the term. While "prototokos" can indicate membership in some contexts, it does not inherently carry this connotation. In Colossians 1:15, the genitive "of all creation" (πάσης κτίσεως) functions relationally, highlighting Christ's preeminence and authority over creation, not His inclusion within it. Early Church Fathers like Athanasius and Basil recognized this nuance to combat Arian claims, noting that "prototokos" signifies rank and supremacy, not temporal priority or creaturely status.
ReplyDeleteThe partitive interpretation of "prototokos" is not necessary here, as the context clearly emphasizes Christ’s role as Creator ("for by Him all things were created" - Colossians 1:16). Your reliance on Thayer’s Lexicon is misapplied; lexicons provide possible meanings, but context determines the appropriate sense. The absence of "protoktistos" (first-created) in this passage is significant—Paul deliberately avoided such terminology to affirm Christ’s distinction from creation. Furthermore, the repeated use of "all things" (τὰ πάντα) in verses 16–17, without any qualifying term like "rest" (λοιπόν), underscores that Christ is not part of what was created but rather the agent of creation.
Regarding the argument that Christ is not divine because Jehovah is the "Most High," this misunderstands the Trinitarian position. Trinitarian theology does not deny the Father’s supremacy but sees the Son and the Spirit as fully sharing in the divine nature. Titles like "Most High" highlight the Father’s role as the source within the Trinity, not the exclusion of the Son from deity. In John 1:1, the Word (Logos) is explicitly called "God" (θεός), and Philippians 2:9–11 affirms that Jesus is worshiped as "Lord" (Κύριος), a title equivalent to Yahweh in the Septuagint. Christ’s divine identity is evident throughout the New Testament, which consistently attributes to Him actions and titles belonging exclusively to God.
Your reference to Isaiah 44:24 misunderstands the nature of Trinitarian creation theology. Jehovah (Yahweh) declares that He created "alone," which reflects the singularity of God, not the exclusion of the Son. Within Trinitarian theology, the Father, Son, and Spirit are one God acting in unity. John 1:3 and Hebrews 1:2 explicitly affirm Christ’s role in creation, describing Him as the agent through whom all things were made. The idea that Jehovah used a "prior creation" to create the world is foreign to the text and contradicts the biblical witness. The energy and information of creation are indeed attributed to God’s being, but the New Testament makes it clear that Christ, as the divine Logos, was integral to this creative act.
Your appeal to "dia" (διά) to argue Christ’s instrumentality is incomplete. While "dia" can denote instrumentality, it also conveys agency, especially in contexts where the subject is divine. For example, Romans 11:36 uses "dia" to describe the Father’s creative activity ("through Him are all things"), yet no one would argue that the Father is a mere instrument. Similarly, John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 describe Christ as the divine agent through whom all things were created, consistent with His full deity.
DeleteRegarding your assertion that the Father’s supremacy excludes the Son’s coequality, this reflects a misunderstanding of Trinitarian theology. The Father’s role as the source within the Trinity does not negate the Son’s equality in essence. The incarnation does not diminish Christ’s divine nature; rather, it reveals His voluntary humility (Philippians 2:6–7). The statement in Matthew 24:36 about the Father’s unique knowledge of the day and hour pertains to Christ’s incarnate state, where He voluntarily limited the exercise of His divine attributes. This does not contradict His divine essence, as the New Testament consistently portrays Christ as coequal and coeternal with the Father (John 5:18, John 10:30, Colossians 2:9).
Finally, while Psalm 8:5 refers to angels as "gods" in a metaphorical sense, this does not equate them with the divine nature of Christ. Christ’s deity is uniquely affirmed in passages like John 1:1, John 20:28, and Colossians 2:9, where He is explicitly identified as God in essence and not merely in function. The supremacy of the Father does not negate the divinity of the Son but reflects the relational distinctions within the Trinity. The biblical witness harmonizes these truths, affirming that Christ is both Creator and Sustainer of all things, fully divine and distinct in personhood from the Father.
https://aservantofjehovah.blogspot.com/2025/01/against-litigious-vi.html
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