Nincs:The context of Proverbs 8, where Wisdom is described as existing before creation, supports the idea of Wisdom being inherent to God rather than created. The translations using "created" reflect interpretative choices, not a definitive rendering of the original Hebrew. Do you even know the renderings of Philo of Alexandria, Aquila, Theodotion, and Symmachus? "Qanah" is used in Genesis 4:1 to mean "acquired" or "gotten." Similarly, in Deuteronomy 32:6, it refers to God "creating" or "fathering" Israel, indicating the flexibility of the term.
Me:actually it shows Wisdom being created at the beginning. And thus an eternal existence is a tortured interpretation.
We note that all the translators in question were trinitatians,including good catholics like yourself, We are not surprised when trinitarians fudge to support their position,but when trinitarians muster sufficient integrity to admit the truth we praise JEHOVAH.
Actually cana is used at Genesis 4:1 to mean begotten, at any rate to speak of JEHOVAH'S Innate Wisdom as being acquired or begotten is to utter an absurdity.
Also re:Israel there was a time when there was no Israel and then JEHOVAH Begot him, clearly None of this would apply to JEHOVAH'S eternal Wisdom.
Nincs:"Ektise" in the LXX can indeed mean "established" or "ordained." Proverbs 8:22 in the LXX does not solely imply creation but can indicate an eternal, foundational role of Wisdom in God's plans. The verb "ktizo" changes the meaning of the text with a double accusative, and it will not be about creation, but about making someone something, e.g. to make him a king, here to make him "arkhe" or "reshit", which can best be translated as "first principle". In Genesis 1:1, "B'reshit" means "in the beginning." In Proverbs 8:22, "reshit" as apposition indicates a principal role rather than temporal priority. This aligns with Wisdom being foundational and eternal. The semantic range of "qanah" includes "acquired" and "possessed," fitting the description of Wisdom as an eternal aspect of God's nature. Translators' choices reflect interpretive decisions rather than definitive meanings.
Me: so there was a time that JEHOVAH'S eternal Wisdom was not established?
He was created in this role and the context makes it clear that he was created at the beginning . even your catholic translations admit that. The two things are not mutually exclusive nincs. Your assertions are not proofs nincs I don't know when you are going to get it through your thick skull?
Nincs:In context, "reshit" and "archēn" emphasize the primacy and preeminence of Wisdom, not its creation. "Reshit" in Proverbs 8:22 denotes a foundational aspect of Wisdom being the foremost, similar to how "archē" is used in John 1:1 to indicate eternal pre-existence rather than a created bebeginning.
Me: Your translators admit the fact that He was created as the foundation of JEHOVAH'S Work which would not be true of his innate wisdom which was not begotten or acquired or established by dint of effort either as the foundation or finish of his work. More trintarian style mental gymnastics.
Nincs:While some translations interpret "qanah" as "created," the broader context and semantic range of "qanah" support interpretations like "possessed" or "acquired," which align with Wisdom being an eternal attribute of God. The use of "qanah" can imply an eternal aspect of Wisdom rather than a temporal creation.
Me: JEHOVAH'S innate Wisdom was not acquired true effort, clearly what is being referred to hear is the beginning of JEHOVAH'S expressing of his wisdom. Via creation he acquired this manifestation of his wisdom.
Nincs:"Apo archē" in 1 John 1:1 is contextually understood to signify Christ's pre-existence from eternity, consistent with John 1:1's "en archē." It emphasizes the eternal nature of the Logos, not a created origin. The use of "apo archē" in 1 John 1:1 is not about a temporal beginning but highlights the Logos's existence before creation. The usage of "apo archē" in 1 John 1:1 and other contexts does not necessitate a created beginning. Instead, it points to a state of existence that predates all creation, aligning with the concept of the eternal Logos in John 1:1.1
More argument by assertion "apo arkhe" is ALWAYS used re:a definite beginning which really is the only kind of beginning that can sensibly be spoken of if a thing is from the eternal past it is definitionally without beginning. And the context of 1John ch.1:1 makes clear that the logos us from the beginning.
I also challenged you to provide scripture where apo arkhe does not refer to a beginning. I'm still waiting.
Proverbs ch.8:24,25NKJV"When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;"
JEHOVAH'S Innate Wisdom was not brought forth (chuwl) this context also helps to explain why even many trinitarian translators begrudgingly admitted that created/begotten was the more likely meaning for cana.
Brown driver brigs re:chuwl"..twist, writhe:
a. in pain, especially childbirth Isaiah 26:17; Isaiah 45:10 ׳מַהתֿח ("" מהתֿוליד; metaphor, of sea Isaiah 23:4 ("" ילד); Israel Isaiah 26:18 ("" חרה), Isaiah 54:1 ("" ילד); Zion Isaiah 66:7,8 ("" id.), Micah 4:10 ("" גֹּ֫חִי, simile כיולדה; compare see 9), Jeremiah 4:31...
So no the context is on my side not yours.
Nincs"Archē" in Revelation 3:14 can also mean "origin", "first principle" or "source," indicating that Christ is the foundational principle through which all creation came into being. This aligns with Colossians 1:16, which states that all things were created through Him.
Me:The creation is dia him so he is not the source also the two things are not mutually exclusive the fact that he is the foundation of the building not only does not exclude the possibility that he is part of the building it makes it likely that he is part of the building
In as much Proverbs ch.8:24,25 shows him to be the first of JEHOVAH'S creation to be brought forth the overall context of the scriptures clarifies the matter
Nincs:Your interpretation of "reshit," "qanah," and "apo archē" as implying created beginnings is not consistent with the broader semantic and contextual analysis of these terms in Scripture. Actually Proverbs 8:22, 1 John 1:1, and Revelation 3:14 emphasize the eternal pre-existence and primacy of Wisdom and the Logos, aligning with traditional Nicene doctrine.
Me: as the scriptures at proverbs ch.8:24,25 clearly show it is you who are odds with the context.
Proverbs ch.8:24,25NKJV"When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;"
As I have often noted birth language of this kind when applied to JEHOVAH refers to his creative activity.
Psalms ch.90:2NKJV"Before the mountains were brought forth(Yalad),..
Acts ch.17:28NKJV"for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’"
At Genesis ch.4:1 cana is used as birth language.
All this tells us who Wisdom at proverbs 8:22 truly is
The apostle Paul identifies Jesus as the Wisdom of JEHOVAH.
1corinthians ch.1:24
JEHOVAH is without beginning, if a thing has always existed then it is definitionally without beginning so to speak of a beginning with reference to JEHOVAH'S Existence is to speak nonsense.
The Hebrew word qanah is highly flexible and context-dependent. While qanah can mean "create" or "acquire," its usage in Proverbs 8:22 more likely conveys the idea of "possessed" or "acquired," as seen in translations like the ESV, NASB, and KJV. This aligns with the understanding of Wisdom as an eternal, inherent attribute of God, not a created being.
ReplyDelete• Genesis 4:1: qanah is used to mean "acquired" or "gotten," not necessarily "created." Eve says, "I have acquired [qanah] a man from the LORD," which clearly refers to receiving Cain, not "creating" him in an ultimate sense.
• Deuteronomy 32:6: qanah describes God's relationship with Israel as their "Father" or "Owner," indicating covenantal possession, not literal creation.
Even ancient Jewish sources, such as the Targum and Philo of Alexandria, understood Wisdom in Proverbs 8 as eternal and intrinsic to God. Philo describes Wisdom as God's "first-born" (prōtotokos), but not in a created sense—it is an eternal manifestation of God's nature.
The verb chuwl (חול) does not inherently mean "created" in the ontological sense. Instead, it often refers to "originating" or "manifesting." For example:
• Psalm 90:2: "Before the mountains were brought forth (yalad), or ever you had formed the earth and the world..." This does not mean the mountains were literally birthed but figuratively describes God's creative activity.
• Micah 5:2: The Messiah’s "goings forth" (motsa'ot) are described as "from eternity" (miqedem). Similarly, Proverbs 8:24-25 speaks of Wisdom’s manifestation in creation without implying its ontological beginning.
Wisdom is described poetically as "brought forth" to illustrate its active role in creation, not its origin. The broader context of Proverbs 8 portrays Wisdom as God's eternal attribute, foundational to all creation, aligning with John's depiction of the Logos (John 1:1).
The Greek word archē (ἀρχή) has multiple meanings, including "beginning," "ruler," "origin," or "source." Its precise meaning is determined by context. In Revelation 3:14, the phrase hē archē tēs ktiseōs is better translated as "the source [or origin] of creation," not "the first created being."
• Colossians 1:16-17: Paul emphasizes that "all things" (πᾶντα) were created through Christ, and Christ existed "before all things" (pro pantōn), clearly excluding Him from the category of created beings.
• John 1:1-3: The Logos (Jesus) is described as existing "in the beginning" (en archē), not as having a beginning, and "all things" were made through Him. If all things were made through Him, He cannot be part of the "all things" created.
Thus, Revelation 3:14 describes Christ as the source or origin of creation, consistent with His divine role as Creator, not a created being.
While Paul identifies Christ as the "Wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24), this is metaphorical, not ontological. The personification of Wisdom in Proverbs 8 poetically describes an attribute of God, not a separate created entity.
• Colossians 1:15-17: Christ is the "image of the invisible God, the firstborn (prōtotokos) of all creation." The term prōtotokos does not mean "first created" (prōtoktistos). Instead, it signifies preeminence and supremacy over creation, as demonstrated in Psalm 89:27, where David is called God's "firstborn," though he was not literally the firstborn son of Jesse.
Christ's role as Creator in Colossians 1 and John 1 underscores His divine nature. The personification of Wisdom in Proverbs 8 anticipates the New Testament's fuller revelation of Christ as the eternal Logos.
https://aservantofjehovah.blogspot.com/2025/01/against-litigious.html
DeleteThe phrase apo archē (ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς) is context-dependent. While it often refers to a temporal starting point, it can also emphasize a state of existence or origin. For example:
ReplyDelete• 1 John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning (apo archē), which we have heard..." Contextually, this refers to the eternal existence of the Logos (Christ), consistent with John 1:1 ("In the beginning was the Word").
• John 8:44: Jesus says the devil "has been a murderer from the beginning (apo archē)," referring to the devil's enduring nature rather than a specific moment in time.
Thus, apo archē in 1 John 1:1 underscores Christ’s eternal existence, not a created origin.
Reputable translations (e.g., NASB, ESV, NIV) are based on rigorous textual analysis and scholarly consensus. Even non-Trinitarian scholars often reject the claim that Proverbs 8 or Colossians 1 teaches Christ's creation. The insertion of "other" in the New World Translation (e.g., Colossians 1:16-17) reflects theological bias, as the word "other" does not appear in the Greek text.
Bruce Metzger, a renowned textual critic, highlights how the Watchtower Society’s translation of Colossians 1:16-17 distorts the text to align with Arian theology, an approach inconsistent with sound exegesis.
In conclusion, the broader biblical and linguistic evidence overwhelmingly supports the eternal pre-existence of Christ as the Logos and Wisdom of God. Proverbs 8 poetically describes Wisdom's role in creation without implying ontological creation. Colossians 1:15-17 and Revelation 3:14 affirm Christ's supremacy and role as Creator, not a created being. Your interpretation relies on selective readings, misunderstandings of language, and theological presuppositions inconsistent with the full biblical witness.
https://aservantofjehovah.blogspot.com/2025/01/against-litigious-ii.html
ReplyDelete