Nincs:Even though you are waiting for such a precedent, you are after all waiting for a conceptual impossibility, because the Son is not only the first-born (prototokos) of the Father, but also his only-begotten
(monogenes), why should the Bible declare similar titles about others to mean that? I'd rather throw the ball back to you, so show me precedents when the term "firstborn" is used in the Bible in such a way, where membership is not a conceptual necessity (for example being born into the category), but the "firstborn of X" formula itself performs the classification. Because all your examples show that it's not the "firstborn of X" formula what implies category membership.
John 8:54 and Acts 3:13: Jesus acknowledges the Father as His God, aligning with His incarnate role. However, John 1:1, 1:14, and Colossians 1:15-17 affirm Christ’s divine nature and active role in creation, which aligns with the concept of the Trinity.
What about the unincarnated spirit the Father alone is the God Israel that is why we constantly read of THE God and HIS Son not their son your incarnation fudge is past its shelf life
Luke ch.1:32NIV"He will be great and will be called the Son of the MOST HIGH. The LORD God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” his God and Father is the MOST HIGH i.e WITHOUT equals thus making the JEHOVAH spoken of at psalm ch.83:18 if your God has two others who are equal to him he is not the JEHOVAH of scripture.
Nincs:The argument that "πρωτότοκος" implies group membership overlooks the contextual usage of the term to denote preeminence and authority. Scriptural examples show that "πρωτότοκος" can signify supremacy without implying that the subject is part of the group. In Colossians 1:15, the context clearly indicates Christ’s authority over creation, affirming His divine nature and role as Creator.
Me: The contrary claim that prototokos necessarily or even possibly excludes membership in the implicit or explicit set goes counter to the TOTALITY of scriptural precedent.
From thayer's:tropically Christ is called πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως (partitive genitive (see below), as in τά πρωτότοκα τῶν προβάτων, Genesis 4:4; τῶν βοῶν, Deuteronomy 12:17; τῶν υἱῶν σου, Exodus 22:29), "
Genesis ch.4:4NKJV"Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering,"
Deuteronomy ch.12:17NKJV"You may not eat within your gates the tithe of your grain or your new wine or your oil, of the firstborn of your herd or your flock, of any of your offerings which you vow, of your freewill offerings, or of the [f]heave offering of your hand. "
Exodus ch.22:29NKJV"“You shall not delay to offer the first of your ripe produce and your juices. The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me."
The claim that "πρωτότοκος" (prototokos, "firstborn") necessarily implies that Christ is part of creation conflates the term's use as denoting rank or preeminence with its use as a literal birth order. In Colossians 1:15, Paul writes, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." The phrase "πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως" does not use a partitive genitive (indicating membership within the group). Instead, the context clarifies that Christ is preeminent over all creation, not a member of creation. Support from context: Verse 16 immediately explains why Christ is called "firstborn": "For by Him all things were created." If Christ created "all things," He cannot logically be part of the created order. The "all things" includes "things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible," emphasizing Christ’s role as Creator, not created.
ReplyDeleteYou cite Thayer's explanation of "πρωτότοκος" as partitive in certain contexts, such as "firstborn of the flock" (Genesis 4:4) or "firstborn of your sons" (Exodus 22:29). However, these examples involve biological or literal relationships. In Colossians 1:15, Paul is using "firstborn" metaphorically to signify rank and authority, consistent with its use in Psalm 89:27: "And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth." Here, "firstborn" signifies preeminence, not literal birth.
The argument that Christ’s title as "monogenes" (only-begotten) suggests He is part of creation misunderstands the theological use of the term: In Hebrews 11:17, Isaac is called Abraham’s "only-begotten" (monogenes), even though Abraham had another son, Ishmael. The term "monogenes" here emphasizes Isaac’s unique role as the son of promise, not that he is the only son in a literal sense. Similarly, Christ’s designation as "monogenes" in John 1:14 and 1:18 highlights His unique relationship to the Father as the eternal Word, not that He was created. The temporal begetting in Acts 13:33, where the resurrection of Christ is referenced with Psalm 2:7 ("You are my Son; today I have begotten you"), pertains to Christ’s glorification, not His ontological origin. This event is distinct from His eternal generation as the Son of God.
The argument that Jehovah creates through preceding creations is flawed when applied to Christ: In Genesis 6:7, Jehovah speaks of "creating" humans and animals. While these beings emerged through natural processes after their kinds, Jehovah is still credited as Creator because He initiated these processes. However, this analogy fails to account for Christ’s unique role as Creator. Colossians 1:16 states that "all things were created through Him and for Him." This does not suggest that Christ was a secondary agent but rather emphasizes His direct involvement as Creator, as also affirmed in John 1:3: "All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made."
https://aservantofjehovah.blogspot.com/2025/01/against-litigious-iii.html
DeleteThe claim that "firstborn" implies membership in creation is not supported by the grammar or broader scriptural context. If Paul intended to communicate that Christ is a part of creation, he could have used a term like "πρωτόκτιστος" (protoktistos, "first-created"), a term never used in the New Testament. Early Church Fathers, such as Athanasius and Basil, explicitly noted this distinction to refute Arian interpretations. The genitive construction in Colossians 1:15 functions relationally, not partitively. Christ is "firstborn" over creation, emphasizing His authority and preeminence, much like a firstborn son would have authority in a family context.
ReplyDeleteThe assertion that Christ cannot be divine because Jehovah is called "the Most High" (Luke 1:32) misunderstands the Trinitarian doctrine: The title "Most High" refers to God’s supremacy over all creation, not an exclusion of the Son or Spirit from the Godhead. In John 1:1, the Word is explicitly called God ("theos"), co-eternal with the Father. Psalm 83:18 affirms that Jehovah is supreme, but this does not exclude Christ’s divinity. Instead, the New Testament reveals Christ as sharing in Jehovah’s divine identity, as seen in Philippians 2:9-11, where every knee bows to Jesus and every tongue confesses Him as Lord (kyrios), the Greek equivalent of Yahweh.
Isaiah 44:24 states that Jehovah created "alone." However, this does not exclude Christ’s role, as the New Testament reveals the plurality within the Godhead. Jehovah is one God, and Christ, as the Word, is His eternal agent in creation. The New Testament consistently attributes creation to Christ (John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2), affirming His equality with the Father in essence and work.
Inconclusion, the arguments presented fail to undermine the clear biblical testimony of Christ’s divinity, preeminence, and role as Creator. The use of "πρωτότοκος" in Colossians 1:15 signifies His supremacy over creation, not His inclusion within it. The Trinitarian understanding harmonizes the full scriptural witness, affirming Christ as fully divine, co-eternal with the Father, and distinct in personhood.
https://aservantofjehovah.blogspot.com/2025/01/against-litigious-iv.html
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