The appeal to Brown Driver Briggs (BDB) regarding the term qanah (קָנָה) in Proverbs 8:22 to argue that it means "originate" or "create" in the context of Wisdom fails to account for the nuanced meaning of the word and the broader theological context. While qanah can indeed mean "to acquire," "to possess," or in some cases "to create," the precise meaning depends heavily on the context in which it is used. Interpreting qanah as "create" in Proverbs 8:22 is not the only or even the most plausible reading when the verse is considered within its literary and theological framework.
In Proverbs 8:22, Wisdom speaks, saying, "The LORD qanah-ed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old." The use of qanah here has been a subject of debate, but several key considerations favor the interpretation of "possessed" or "brought forth" over "created".
In many instances in the Hebrew Bible, qanah is better translated as "to acquire" or "to possess" rather than "to create." For example, in Genesis 14:19 and 14:22, qanah is used in the phrase "Possessor of heaven and earth" (qoneh shamayim va'aretz). Here, the word does not mean "creator" in the strict sense, as the primary term for "create" in Hebrew is bara (בָּרָא), used in Genesis 1:1 to describe God's creation of the universe. Instead, qanah conveys ownership or possession, emphasizing God's authority and dominion over creation.
The broader context of Proverbs 8 portrays Wisdom as eternal and integral to God's creative work. Proverbs 8:23 says, "From everlasting I was established, from the beginning, before the earth existed." This language strongly suggests preexistence rather than being a created entity. The portrayal of Wisdom as preexistent aligns more naturally with the interpretation of qanah as "possessed" or "brought forth" rather than "created."
The Septuagint (LXX), the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, renders qanah in Proverbs 8:22 as ektise (ἔκτισεν), meaning "created." While this might seem to support the argument that qanah means "create," it is essential to recognize that the Septuagint translators often interpreted Hebrew idioms in ways that accommodated their theological or cultural context. The use of ektise should not be seen as definitive proof that qanah means "create," especially given the Hebrew Bible's own emphasis on Wisdom's eternal and divine qualities.
In the broader biblical and theological context, Wisdom is often personified as an attribute of God, reflecting His eternal nature, insight, and creative power. To interpret qanah as "create" risks reducing Wisdom to a temporal creation rather than an integral aspect of God's nature. This interpretation becomes particularly problematic in light of the New Testament, where Wisdom is closely associated with Christ (e.g., 1 Corinthians 1:24). Christ, as divine Wisdom, is uncreated and eternal, fully sharing in the divine essence.
The reference to Psalm 139:13, where qanah is used in the phrase "you formed my inward parts" (kanita kilyotai), highlights a different nuance of the word, related to formation or acquisition. However, even in this context, the term emphasizes God's intimate knowledge and involvement with creation rather than the act of creating from nothing (ex nihilo). This usage does not necessarily support the interpretation of qanah as "create" in Proverbs 8:22.
In conclusion, while qanah can sometimes carry the connotation of creation, the context of Proverbs 8:22 strongly favors the translation "possessed" or "brought forth." This interpretation is consistent with the depiction of Wisdom as eternal and intimately involved in God's creative activity. The argument that qanah must mean "create" in this passage imposes a narrow reading that conflicts with both the immediate literary context and the broader theological witness of Scripture regarding the nature of divine Wisdom.
BDB is a lexicon so they are taking the context into ccount and saying that this us the likely meaning in this case.. the charge that the translators of the septuagint were being biased seems to better apply to you nincs.
While it is true that Brown-Driver-Briggs (BDB) is a lexicon that takes context into account, the argument they make isn't absolute or unambiguous. The BDB does not claim that "qanah" in every instance means "create"; rather, it provides a range of possible meanings, such as "to acquire," "to possess," and, in some cases, "to create." However, just because the lexicon offers "create" as a possible meaning doesn't necessarily mean it is the most appropriate or theologically sound interpretation in a given context. The lexicon’s broad definitions do not dictate a single correct interpretation but rather highlight the word’s flexibility. The point of contention is whether the context of Proverbs 8:22, with its specific theological and literary framework, lends itself to the interpretation of "create." There are several reasons, including the portrayal of Wisdom as preexistent, that make the interpretation of "possessed" or "brought forth" far more plausible than "created."
It is important to note that translation choices are not free from theological influence, especially in the case of the Septuagint. The translators of the Septuagint were operating within a specific historical and theological context that was heavily influenced by Hellenistic philosophy. The concept of a "created" Wisdom was more palatable within their worldview, which was more comfortable with the idea of a demiurge or a created intermediary, as opposed to the understanding of Wisdom as eternal and uncreated. This is significant because the Septuagint often sought to make the Hebrew Bible accessible to Greek-speaking Jews and Gentiles who may have found the idea of eternal, uncreated Wisdom challenging. Their translation of "qanah" as "ektise" (meaning "created") aligns with that cultural and theological context, which was very different from the original Hebrew setting of Proverbs 8.
The theological context in which the word "qanah" is used in Proverbs 8 is critical. Proverbs 8:22 describes Wisdom as an eternal aspect of God’s nature, involved in the creation of the world, preexisting with God “from the beginning” (Proverbs 8:23). The idea that Wisdom could be “created” AS the “beginning of His work” contradicts the portrayal of Wisdom as uncreated and eternal. Interpreting "qanah" as "created" would undermine the preexistent and eternal nature of Wisdom, which aligns more closely with later Christian theology, especially with the association (typological application) of Wisdom with Christ in the NT (e.g., 1 Corinthians 1:24). Therefore, the interpretation of "possessed" or "brought forth" preserves this sense of eternal participation in God's divine essence.í
The Hebrew word "qanah" is frequently used in contexts that emphasize possession or acquisition, not creation. A clear example is found in Genesis 14:19 and 14:22, where "qanah" refers to ownership or dominion over the earth and heavens, rather than creating them. The consistent use of "qanah" in these instances suggests that the word has a nuanced range of meanings, but "creation" in the ex nihilo sense is not its predominant usage. Thus, interpreting "qanah" in Proverbs 8:22 as "create" goes against the broader usage of the term in the Hebrew Bible.
The broader theological context of Proverbs 8 strongly supports the idea that Wisdom is an eternal attribute of God, not a created being. The depiction of Wisdom as "from everlasting" (Proverbs 8:23) is consistent with the idea that Wisdom is a divine quality, intrinsic to God's nature, and not something brought into existence at the “beginning.” Wisdom’s eternal nature aligns with the concept of a divine intermediary, as later understood in Christian theology (e.g., the Logos in John 1:1-3). To argue that Wisdom was "created" “at” the beginning introduces a theological tension with the understanding of God’s eternal nature and the uncreated nature of His divine attributes, which would be inconsistent with the broader biblical message about God’s eternal wisdom.
In summary, while the BDB lexicon provides a range of possible meanings for "qanah," the context of Proverbs 8:22 and the broader theological framework of Scripture strongly support the interpretation of "possessed" or "brought forth" rather than "created." The Septuagint translation does not definitively settle the issue, as it reflects the theological assumptions of its translators rather than the original meaning in the Hebrew context. The portrayal of Wisdom as eternal and uncreated, as well as the broader biblical use of "qanah," suggests that "create" is not the best translation in Proverbs 8:22.
According to BDB the context at Proverbs 8:22 suggest create rather than possess beginning does not logically suggest infinity, genesis ch 14:19 NIV"and he blessed Abram, saying,
“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth" Your assertions to the contrary of accredited sources proves nothing. Proverbs ch.8:30 shows this expression of JEHOVAH'S Wisdom ALONGSIDE his maker as a beloved offspring. So clearly wisdom is being used poetically to refer to the greatest expression of JEHOVAH'S Wisdom and not a mere abstraction.
You reference Proverbs 8:22 and suggest that the term qanah ("possess") implies creation, which is a point of debate. However, the BDB (Brown-Driver-Briggs) lexicon itself acknowledges that while qanah can mean "to create" in some contexts, its primary meaning is "to acquire" or "to possess", not "to create." In Proverbs 8:22 wisdom is personified and speaks of being possessed by the Lord. This does not mean wisdom was created in the same sense that something entirely new is brought into existence. The verb qanah here speaks of God’s ownership or establishment of wisdom, not its creation ex nihilo (out of nothing). The idea of wisdom being “possessed” before creation suggests its eternal existence with God rather than its origin as a created being. In the same chapter, wisdom is shown to be present before the creation of the earth, the sea, and the mountains (Proverbs 8:23–26), pointing to the preexistence of wisdom. Thus, the interpretation of Proverbs 8:22 in terms of "creation" is not fully accurate within the broader context of the verse and the usual meaning of qanah in Scripture. The text itself points to wisdom’s eternal presence with God, not its creation.
You cite Genesis 14:19, where Melchizedek blesses Abram and refers to God as the "Creator of heaven and earth". While this is an important title for God, it is a statement of God's sovereignty and authority over all creation. It does not specifically address the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the creation of the world. This title, God Most High (El Elyon), refers to God as the supreme ruler of the universe, and Creator refers to God’s role in bringing the cosmos into existence. This is consistent with the Trinitarian doctrine in which all three persons of the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are active in creation, not just one alone. As per John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, and Hebrews 1:2, the Son (the Logos) is actively involved in creation through the Father, as an agent of creation, not a created being.
You argue that Proverbs 8:30 shows wisdom alongside its maker, as a "beloved offspring." This is indeed a poetic expression, but it does not suggest that wisdom is a created being. Rather, this verse emphasizes the intimacy and relationship between God and His wisdom. "Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him." (Proverbs 8:30) In this verse, wisdom is presented as being intimately involved in God’s creative work. The term "beside Him" (next to God) emphasizes the companionship of wisdom with God during the creation of the world. This is a personification of wisdom, describing it in human terms to communicate the close relationship between God and wisdom. The "beloved offspring" idea is poetic, suggesting a special relationship rather than a biological generation. In context, it is more about wisdom's role in God’s plan than about it being a created entity.
You state that wisdom is the "greatest expression of Jehovah's wisdom and not a mere abstraction." This is a fair point in terms of the poetic and personified nature of wisdom in Proverbs 8. However, it’s important to understand that personification in Scripture does not equate to actual creation. The wisdom described in Proverbs 8 is not a created being, but God's own wisdom, eternally existing with Him. This eternal wisdom was active in creation but was not created itself. If we follow this logic, we should also understand that wisdom’s personification does not make it a separate being from God, and there is no evidence in Proverbs 8 or elsewhere in Scripture that wisdom is a created entity. The Trinitarian understanding holds that the Son is eternal and uncreated.
More argument by assertion. The BDB states that in the context of Proverbs QANAH likely means create JEHOVAH dies not have any relationship with his Wisdom, canah is birth language see Genesis ch.4 so the fact that the wisdom JEHOVAH Canah is portrayed as his offspring is significant , we get the word logic from Logos. Logic of course us a key element if wisdom christ is called the wisdom of JEHOVAH , Wisdom at Proverbs us clearly an expression of JEHOVAH'S Wisdom not the unacquired wisdom that characterise him.
More argument by assertion. The BDB states that in the context of Proverbs QANAH likely means create JEHOVAH dies not have any relationship with his Wisdom, canah is birth language see Genesis ch.4 so the fact that the wisdom JEHOVAH Canah is portrayed as his offspring is significant , we get the word logic from Logos. Logic of course us a key element if wisdom christ is called the wisdom of JEHOVAH , Wisdom at Proverbs us clearly an expression of JEHOVAH'S Wisdom not the unacquired wisdom that characterise him.
Your response conflates several concepts without adequately addressing the context or linguistic nuances of qanah in Proverbs 8:22. First, while the Brown-Driver-Briggs lexicon (BDB) suggests that qanah in some contexts can mean "create," it does not definitively state that this is the correct interpretation in Proverbs 8:22. Lexicons like BDB provide possible meanings based on context, and the use of qanah in Proverbs 8:22 should not be divorced from its broader theological and literary framework. The assertion that "qanah likely means create" is not a conclusion of the BDB but rather a selective reading of its entries.
The claim that Jehovah "does not have any relationship with his Wisdom" contradicts the portrayal of Wisdom in Proverbs 8 as integral to God’s creative work. Wisdom is described as "beside Him" and "rejoicing before Him" during creation (Proverbs 8:30), clearly indicating an intimate and participatory relationship. This is not the language of a created being distinct from God but of an eternal attribute or quality of God personified poetically to emphasize its role in creation.
The use of "birth language" in Genesis 4, where qanah appears in the context of Cain's birth, does not establish that qanah inherently conveys biological or creative origins in every instance. Words in Hebrew, like in any language, have semantic ranges that vary depending on their usage and context. For example, qanah is used in Genesis 14:19 to describe God as the "Possessor" (or "Acquirer") of heaven and earth, a usage that does not imply creation but ownership. To equate the use of qanah in Genesis 4 with its use in Proverbs 8 ignores this diversity of meaning and imposes a narrow interpretation on a rich and multifaceted term.
Your statement that "Wisdom at Proverbs is clearly an expression of Jehovah's Wisdom" is correct but incomplete. Proverbs 8 presents Wisdom as a personified attribute of God, not as a separate, created being. The depiction of Wisdom as "brought forth" or "possessed" (qanah) before creation underscores its eternal and intrinsic nature as part of God's being, not something acquired at a specific point in time. This interpretation aligns with the broader context of Proverbs 8, where Wisdom is portrayed as existing "from everlasting" (Proverbs 8:23), language that is incompatible with the idea of a temporal creation.
The association of Christ with Wisdom in the New Testament (e.g., 1 Corinthians 1:24) further supports the understanding of Wisdom as eternal and uncreated. Christ, as the divine Logos, shares in the uncreated nature of God and cannot be reduced to a created being. While it is true that logic is a key element of wisdom, this does not imply that Christ, as the Logos, is merely an "expression" of acquired wisdom. Instead, the New Testament portrays Christ as the eternal Word through whom all things were made (John 1:3). This eternal nature is consistent with the portrayal of Wisdom in Proverbs 8 as preexistent and integral to God's creative work.
Obviously wisdom as offspring acquired by JEHOVAH is not the abstract Wisdom. BDB specifically states that cana at Proverbs ch.8 is create. The fact that wisdom is depicted as offspring proves that BDB is correct ,your arguments from silence are insufficient to counter their claim. The only way God the NIV has create at Genesis 14:19 they are.more qualified.than you there is nothing in the context that negates that rendering. There is also birth language in Proverbs 8 wisdom says he was Brought forth chuwl verse 24,25 the abstract Wisdom of JEHOVAH Was not brought forth so likely thus context is why lexicon render cana as create at verse 22 Thus is not an innovation church Father origen and others also believe wisdom here was the pre human christ https://www.scribd.com/document/345196906/Proverbs-8-22-31-Early-Church-Fathers#:~:text=It%20provides%20examples%20of%20how%20Justin%20Martyr%2C,to%20understand%20the%20pre%2Dexistence%2C%20distinction%2C%20and%20role
While it is true that Proverbs 8 personifies Wisdom, this does not necessitate that Wisdom is a separate entity or "offspring" in a literal sense. Personification is a poetic device frequently used in Scripture to convey abstract concepts in relatable terms. For example, in Proverbs 9:1, Wisdom is described as building a house and preparing a feast. These actions are not meant to be taken literally; they emphasize Wisdom's practical role in God's creation and guidance. Similarly, the description of Wisdom as "acquired" or "brought forth" does not imply a biological or temporal origin but rather God's eternal possession and expression of Wisdom.
While the BDB acknowledges that qanah *can* mean "to create" in some contexts, it does not assert that this is the only or even the most accurate meaning in Proverbs 8:22. The primary meaning of qanah in Hebrew is "to acquire" or "to possess," as seen in Genesis 14:19 and other passages. The interpretation of qanah in Proverbs 8:22 must consider the broader context of the chapter, which portrays Wisdom as eternal and integral to God's nature. Translating qanah as "create" imposes a theological bias that is not inherently present in the text.
The use of "offspring" language in Proverbs 8 is metaphorical and poetic. The Hebrew word chuwl (translated as "brought forth" in verses 24–25) conveys the idea of birth or emergence but does not necessitate a literal creation event. Proverbs 8:23 explicitly states that Wisdom was established "from everlasting," which aligns more closely with the interpretation of Wisdom as eternal and uncreated. The depiction of Wisdom as "brought forth" emphasizes its intimate relationship with God and its active role in creation, not its origin as a created being.
The translation choices of the NIV, or any translation for that matter, do not serve as definitive proof of a particular interpretation. Genesis 14:19 uses qanah to describe God as the "Possessor of heaven and earth," which aligns with the primary meaning of qanah as "to acquire" or "to possess." Translating qanah as "create" in this context is less accurate because the focus of the passage is on God's sovereignty and ownership, not the act of creation. Furthermore, the consistency of qanah's meaning across other biblical passages strongly favors "possess" or "acquire" rather than "create."
The use of chuwl in verses 24–25 does not imply a temporal creation event. Instead, it is part of the poetic imagery used to personify Wisdom. The phrase "brought forth" emphasizes Wisdom's integral role in God's creative activity, not its origin as a created being. Additionally, the description of Wisdom as existing "from everlasting" (verse 23) underscores its eternal nature, which is incompatible with the idea of Wisdom being created at a specific point in time.
It is true that some early Church Fathers, including Origen, interpreted Wisdom in Proverbs 8 as a reference to Christ. However, their understanding of Christ as the Logos (Word) was rooted in the belief that Christ is eternal and uncreated, fully divine and consubstantial with the Father. Origen himself affirmed the eternal generation of the Son, which is distinct from the concept of creation. To equate Christ, as divine Wisdom, with a created being misrepresents both the intent of the Church Fathers and the broader biblical witness.
The appeal to Brown Driver Briggs (BDB) regarding the term qanah (קָנָה) in Proverbs 8:22 to argue that it means "originate" or "create" in the context of Wisdom fails to account for the nuanced meaning of the word and the broader theological context. While qanah can indeed mean "to acquire," "to possess," or in some cases "to create," the precise meaning depends heavily on the context in which it is used. Interpreting qanah as "create" in Proverbs 8:22 is not the only or even the most plausible reading when the verse is considered within its literary and theological framework.
ReplyDeleteIn Proverbs 8:22, Wisdom speaks, saying, "The LORD qanah-ed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old." The use of qanah here has been a subject of debate, but several key considerations favor the interpretation of "possessed" or "brought forth" over "created".
In many instances in the Hebrew Bible, qanah is better translated as "to acquire" or "to possess" rather than "to create." For example, in Genesis 14:19 and 14:22, qanah is used in the phrase "Possessor of heaven and earth" (qoneh shamayim va'aretz). Here, the word does not mean "creator" in the strict sense, as the primary term for "create" in Hebrew is bara (בָּרָא), used in Genesis 1:1 to describe God's creation of the universe. Instead, qanah conveys ownership or possession, emphasizing God's authority and dominion over creation.
The broader context of Proverbs 8 portrays Wisdom as eternal and integral to God's creative work. Proverbs 8:23 says, "From everlasting I was established, from the beginning, before the earth existed." This language strongly suggests preexistence rather than being a created entity. The portrayal of Wisdom as preexistent aligns more naturally with the interpretation of qanah as "possessed" or "brought forth" rather than "created."
The Septuagint (LXX), the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, renders qanah in Proverbs 8:22 as ektise (ἔκτισεν), meaning "created." While this might seem to support the argument that qanah means "create," it is essential to recognize that the Septuagint translators often interpreted Hebrew idioms in ways that accommodated their theological or cultural context. The use of ektise should not be seen as definitive proof that qanah means "create," especially given the Hebrew Bible's own emphasis on Wisdom's eternal and divine qualities.
In the broader biblical and theological context, Wisdom is often personified as an attribute of God, reflecting His eternal nature, insight, and creative power. To interpret qanah as "create" risks reducing Wisdom to a temporal creation rather than an integral aspect of God's nature. This interpretation becomes particularly problematic in light of the New Testament, where Wisdom is closely associated with Christ (e.g., 1 Corinthians 1:24). Christ, as divine Wisdom, is uncreated and eternal, fully sharing in the divine essence.
The reference to Psalm 139:13, where qanah is used in the phrase "you formed my inward parts" (kanita kilyotai), highlights a different nuance of the word, related to formation or acquisition. However, even in this context, the term emphasizes God's intimate knowledge and involvement with creation rather than the act of creating from nothing (ex nihilo). This usage does not necessarily support the interpretation of qanah as "create" in Proverbs 8:22.
In conclusion, while qanah can sometimes carry the connotation of creation, the context of Proverbs 8:22 strongly favors the translation "possessed" or "brought forth." This interpretation is consistent with the depiction of Wisdom as eternal and intimately involved in God's creative activity. The argument that qanah must mean "create" in this passage imposes a narrow reading that conflicts with both the immediate literary context and the broader theological witness of Scripture regarding the nature of divine Wisdom.
BDB is a lexicon so they are taking the context into ccount and saying that this us the likely meaning in this case.. the charge that the translators of the septuagint were being biased seems to better apply to you nincs.
ReplyDeleteWhile it is true that Brown-Driver-Briggs (BDB) is a lexicon that takes context into account, the argument they make isn't absolute or unambiguous. The BDB does not claim that "qanah" in every instance means "create"; rather, it provides a range of possible meanings, such as "to acquire," "to possess," and, in some cases, "to create." However, just because the lexicon offers "create" as a possible meaning doesn't necessarily mean it is the most appropriate or theologically sound interpretation in a given context. The lexicon’s broad definitions do not dictate a single correct interpretation but rather highlight the word’s flexibility. The point of contention is whether the context of Proverbs 8:22, with its specific theological and literary framework, lends itself to the interpretation of "create." There are several reasons, including the portrayal of Wisdom as preexistent, that make the interpretation of "possessed" or "brought forth" far more plausible than "created."
DeleteIt is important to note that translation choices are not free from theological influence, especially in the case of the Septuagint. The translators of the Septuagint were operating within a specific historical and theological context that was heavily influenced by Hellenistic philosophy. The concept of a "created" Wisdom was more palatable within their worldview, which was more comfortable with the idea of a demiurge or a created intermediary, as opposed to the understanding of Wisdom as eternal and uncreated. This is significant because the Septuagint often sought to make the Hebrew Bible accessible to Greek-speaking Jews and Gentiles who may have found the idea of eternal, uncreated Wisdom challenging. Their translation of "qanah" as "ektise" (meaning "created") aligns with that cultural and theological context, which was very different from the original Hebrew setting of Proverbs 8.
The theological context in which the word "qanah" is used in Proverbs 8 is critical. Proverbs 8:22 describes Wisdom as an eternal aspect of God’s nature, involved in the creation of the world, preexisting with God “from the beginning” (Proverbs 8:23). The idea that Wisdom could be “created” AS the “beginning of His work” contradicts the portrayal of Wisdom as uncreated and eternal. Interpreting "qanah" as "created" would undermine the preexistent and eternal nature of Wisdom, which aligns more closely with later Christian theology, especially with the association (typological application) of Wisdom with Christ in the NT (e.g., 1 Corinthians 1:24). Therefore, the interpretation of "possessed" or "brought forth" preserves this sense of eternal participation in God's divine essence.í
The Hebrew word "qanah" is frequently used in contexts that emphasize possession or acquisition, not creation. A clear example is found in Genesis 14:19 and 14:22, where "qanah" refers to ownership or dominion over the earth and heavens, rather than creating them. The consistent use of "qanah" in these instances suggests that the word has a nuanced range of meanings, but "creation" in the ex nihilo sense is not its predominant usage. Thus, interpreting "qanah" in Proverbs 8:22 as "create" goes against the broader usage of the term in the Hebrew Bible.
DeleteThe broader theological context of Proverbs 8 strongly supports the idea that Wisdom is an eternal attribute of God, not a created being. The depiction of Wisdom as "from everlasting" (Proverbs 8:23) is consistent with the idea that Wisdom is a divine quality, intrinsic to God's nature, and not something brought into existence at the “beginning.” Wisdom’s eternal nature aligns with the concept of a divine intermediary, as later understood in Christian theology (e.g., the Logos in John 1:1-3). To argue that Wisdom was "created" “at” the beginning introduces a theological tension with the understanding of God’s eternal nature and the uncreated nature of His divine attributes, which would be inconsistent with the broader biblical message about God’s eternal wisdom.
In summary, while the BDB lexicon provides a range of possible meanings for "qanah," the context of Proverbs 8:22 and the broader theological framework of Scripture strongly support the interpretation of "possessed" or "brought forth" rather than "created." The Septuagint translation does not definitively settle the issue, as it reflects the theological assumptions of its translators rather than the original meaning in the Hebrew context. The portrayal of Wisdom as eternal and uncreated, as well as the broader biblical use of "qanah," suggests that "create" is not the best translation in Proverbs 8:22.
According to BDB the context at Proverbs 8:22 suggest create rather than possess beginning does not logically suggest infinity, genesis ch 14:19 NIV"and he blessed Abram, saying,
Delete“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth"
Your assertions to the contrary of accredited sources proves nothing.
Proverbs ch.8:30 shows this expression of JEHOVAH'S Wisdom ALONGSIDE his maker as a beloved offspring. So clearly wisdom is being used poetically to refer to the greatest expression of JEHOVAH'S Wisdom and not a mere abstraction.
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DeleteYou reference Proverbs 8:22 and suggest that the term qanah ("possess") implies creation, which is a point of debate. However, the BDB (Brown-Driver-Briggs) lexicon itself acknowledges that while qanah can mean "to create" in some contexts, its primary meaning is "to acquire" or "to possess", not "to create." In Proverbs 8:22 wisdom is personified and speaks of being possessed by the Lord. This does not mean wisdom was created in the same sense that something entirely new is brought into existence. The verb qanah here speaks of God’s ownership or establishment of wisdom, not its creation ex nihilo (out of nothing). The idea of wisdom being “possessed” before creation suggests its eternal existence with God rather than its origin as a created being. In the same chapter, wisdom is shown to be present before the creation of the earth, the sea, and the mountains (Proverbs 8:23–26), pointing to the preexistence of wisdom. Thus, the interpretation of Proverbs 8:22 in terms of "creation" is not fully accurate within the broader context of the verse and the usual meaning of qanah in Scripture. The text itself points to wisdom’s eternal presence with God, not its creation.
DeleteYou cite Genesis 14:19, where Melchizedek blesses Abram and refers to God as the "Creator of heaven and earth". While this is an important title for God, it is a statement of God's sovereignty and authority over all creation. It does not specifically address the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the creation of the world. This title, God Most High (El Elyon), refers to God as the supreme ruler of the universe, and Creator refers to God’s role in bringing the cosmos into existence. This is consistent with the Trinitarian doctrine in which all three persons of the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are active in creation, not just one alone. As per John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, and Hebrews 1:2, the Son (the Logos) is actively involved in creation through the Father, as an agent of creation, not a created being.
You argue that Proverbs 8:30 shows wisdom alongside its maker, as a "beloved offspring." This is indeed a poetic expression, but it does not suggest that wisdom is a created being. Rather, this verse emphasizes the intimacy and relationship between God and His wisdom. "Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him." (Proverbs 8:30) In this verse, wisdom is presented as being intimately involved in God’s creative work. The term "beside Him" (next to God) emphasizes the companionship of wisdom with God during the creation of the world. This is a personification of wisdom, describing it in human terms to communicate the close relationship between God and wisdom. The "beloved offspring" idea is poetic, suggesting a special relationship rather than a biological generation. In context, it is more about wisdom's role in God’s plan than about it being a created entity.
You state that wisdom is the "greatest expression of Jehovah's wisdom and not a mere abstraction." This is a fair point in terms of the poetic and personified nature of wisdom in Proverbs 8. However, it’s important to understand that personification in Scripture does not equate to actual creation. The wisdom described in Proverbs 8 is not a created being, but God's own wisdom, eternally existing with Him. This eternal wisdom was active in creation but was not created itself. If we follow this logic, we should also understand that wisdom’s personification does not make it a separate being from God, and there is no evidence in Proverbs 8 or elsewhere in Scripture that wisdom is a created entity. The Trinitarian understanding holds that the Son is eternal and uncreated.
More argument by assertion. The BDB states that in the context of Proverbs QANAH likely means create JEHOVAH dies not have any relationship with his Wisdom, canah is birth language see Genesis ch.4 so the fact that the wisdom JEHOVAH Canah is portrayed as his offspring is significant , we get the word logic from Logos. Logic of course us a key element if wisdom christ is called the wisdom of JEHOVAH , Wisdom at Proverbs us clearly an expression of JEHOVAH'S Wisdom not the unacquired wisdom that characterise him.
ReplyDeleteMore argument by assertion. The BDB states that in the context of Proverbs QANAH likely means create JEHOVAH dies not have any relationship with his Wisdom, canah is birth language see Genesis ch.4 so the fact that the wisdom JEHOVAH Canah is portrayed as his offspring is significant , we get the word logic from Logos. Logic of course us a key element if wisdom christ is called the wisdom of JEHOVAH , Wisdom at Proverbs us clearly an expression of JEHOVAH'S Wisdom not the unacquired wisdom that characterise him.
ReplyDeleteYour response conflates several concepts without adequately addressing the context or linguistic nuances of qanah in Proverbs 8:22. First, while the Brown-Driver-Briggs lexicon (BDB) suggests that qanah in some contexts can mean "create," it does not definitively state that this is the correct interpretation in Proverbs 8:22. Lexicons like BDB provide possible meanings based on context, and the use of qanah in Proverbs 8:22 should not be divorced from its broader theological and literary framework. The assertion that "qanah likely means create" is not a conclusion of the BDB but rather a selective reading of its entries.
DeleteThe claim that Jehovah "does not have any relationship with his Wisdom" contradicts the portrayal of Wisdom in Proverbs 8 as integral to God’s creative work. Wisdom is described as "beside Him" and "rejoicing before Him" during creation (Proverbs 8:30), clearly indicating an intimate and participatory relationship. This is not the language of a created being distinct from God but of an eternal attribute or quality of God personified poetically to emphasize its role in creation.
The use of "birth language" in Genesis 4, where qanah appears in the context of Cain's birth, does not establish that qanah inherently conveys biological or creative origins in every instance. Words in Hebrew, like in any language, have semantic ranges that vary depending on their usage and context. For example, qanah is used in Genesis 14:19 to describe God as the "Possessor" (or "Acquirer") of heaven and earth, a usage that does not imply creation but ownership. To equate the use of qanah in Genesis 4 with its use in Proverbs 8 ignores this diversity of meaning and imposes a narrow interpretation on a rich and multifaceted term.
Your statement that "Wisdom at Proverbs is clearly an expression of Jehovah's Wisdom" is correct but incomplete. Proverbs 8 presents Wisdom as a personified attribute of God, not as a separate, created being. The depiction of Wisdom as "brought forth" or "possessed" (qanah) before creation underscores its eternal and intrinsic nature as part of God's being, not something acquired at a specific point in time. This interpretation aligns with the broader context of Proverbs 8, where Wisdom is portrayed as existing "from everlasting" (Proverbs 8:23), language that is incompatible with the idea of a temporal creation.
The association of Christ with Wisdom in the New Testament (e.g., 1 Corinthians 1:24) further supports the understanding of Wisdom as eternal and uncreated. Christ, as the divine Logos, shares in the uncreated nature of God and cannot be reduced to a created being. While it is true that logic is a key element of wisdom, this does not imply that Christ, as the Logos, is merely an "expression" of acquired wisdom. Instead, the New Testament portrays Christ as the eternal Word through whom all things were made (John 1:3). This eternal nature is consistent with the portrayal of Wisdom in Proverbs 8 as preexistent and integral to God's creative work.
Obviously wisdom as offspring acquired by JEHOVAH is not the abstract Wisdom. BDB specifically states that cana at Proverbs ch.8 is create. The fact that wisdom is depicted as offspring proves that BDB is correct ,your arguments from silence are insufficient to counter their claim.
ReplyDeleteThe only way God the NIV has create at Genesis 14:19 they are.more qualified.than you there is nothing in the context that negates that rendering. There is also birth language in Proverbs 8 wisdom says he was Brought forth chuwl verse 24,25 the abstract Wisdom of JEHOVAH Was not brought forth so likely thus context is why lexicon render cana as create at verse 22
Thus is not an innovation church Father origen and others also believe wisdom here was the pre human christ
https://www.scribd.com/document/345196906/Proverbs-8-22-31-Early-Church-Fathers#:~:text=It%20provides%20examples%20of%20how%20Justin%20Martyr%2C,to%20understand%20the%20pre%2Dexistence%2C%20distinction%2C%20and%20role
While it is true that Proverbs 8 personifies Wisdom, this does not necessitate that Wisdom is a separate entity or "offspring" in a literal sense. Personification is a poetic device frequently used in Scripture to convey abstract concepts in relatable terms. For example, in Proverbs 9:1, Wisdom is described as building a house and preparing a feast. These actions are not meant to be taken literally; they emphasize Wisdom's practical role in God's creation and guidance. Similarly, the description of Wisdom as "acquired" or "brought forth" does not imply a biological or temporal origin but rather God's eternal possession and expression of Wisdom.
DeleteWhile the BDB acknowledges that qanah *can* mean "to create" in some contexts, it does not assert that this is the only or even the most accurate meaning in Proverbs 8:22. The primary meaning of qanah in Hebrew is "to acquire" or "to possess," as seen in Genesis 14:19 and other passages. The interpretation of qanah in Proverbs 8:22 must consider the broader context of the chapter, which portrays Wisdom as eternal and integral to God's nature. Translating qanah as "create" imposes a theological bias that is not inherently present in the text.
The use of "offspring" language in Proverbs 8 is metaphorical and poetic. The Hebrew word chuwl (translated as "brought forth" in verses 24–25) conveys the idea of birth or emergence but does not necessitate a literal creation event. Proverbs 8:23 explicitly states that Wisdom was established "from everlasting," which aligns more closely with the interpretation of Wisdom as eternal and uncreated. The depiction of Wisdom as "brought forth" emphasizes its intimate relationship with God and its active role in creation, not its origin as a created being.
The translation choices of the NIV, or any translation for that matter, do not serve as definitive proof of a particular interpretation. Genesis 14:19 uses qanah to describe God as the "Possessor of heaven and earth," which aligns with the primary meaning of qanah as "to acquire" or "to possess." Translating qanah as "create" in this context is less accurate because the focus of the passage is on God's sovereignty and ownership, not the act of creation. Furthermore, the consistency of qanah's meaning across other biblical passages strongly favors "possess" or "acquire" rather than "create."
The use of chuwl in verses 24–25 does not imply a temporal creation event. Instead, it is part of the poetic imagery used to personify Wisdom. The phrase "brought forth" emphasizes Wisdom's integral role in God's creative activity, not its origin as a created being. Additionally, the description of Wisdom as existing "from everlasting" (verse 23) underscores its eternal nature, which is incompatible with the idea of Wisdom being created at a specific point in time.
It is true that some early Church Fathers, including Origen, interpreted Wisdom in Proverbs 8 as a reference to Christ. However, their understanding of Christ as the Logos (Word) was rooted in the belief that Christ is eternal and uncreated, fully divine and consubstantial with the Father. Origen himself affirmed the eternal generation of the Son, which is distinct from the concept of creation. To equate Christ, as divine Wisdom, with a created being misrepresents both the intent of the Church Fathers and the broader biblical witness.