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Wednesday 22 May 2024

Against nincsnevem ad pluribus II

Nincs: "Then why did Jesus not? Why do the apostles not?"

Meaning what? That they did not serve in the Roman army? Firstly, because it was not their calling, for example, Jesus was a 'tekton' (artisan or craftsman), not a soldier, and His primary mission was to proclaim the gospel and offer Himself as a sacrifice. The apostles also had civilian occupations. Secondly, they were Jews, not Roman citizens, and Jews rarely served in the Roman army because their monotheism, observance of the Sabbath, abstinence from pork, and other cultural and religious laws made it difficult for them to fulfill the duties of a Roman soldier. Therefore, for instance, the Jews of Ephesus were exempted from recruitment into the armies of Pompey in 49 BC and again by Dolabella in 43 BC. The latter publicized his decision all over Asia Minor and beyond.

Me: well I don't recall asking the question so I can only guess at the reasoning of the questioner or I could enquire and get his clarification as ought to. A practicing Jew would certainly object to the idolatry that serving in the Roman army at the time but what does any of this have to do with my actual argument though.

Once the JEHOVAH'S Congregation became international rather than national serving in the various armies on the unbelieving nations would signal a readiness kill fellow subjects of JEHOVAH'S Kingdom which would be a flagrant violation of the higher allegiance we owe to that kingdom. The Christian simply cannot pick up the sword in the service of the Imperial or national ambitions of any prince of the present age.

Revelation Ch.13:10NASB"If anyone [f]is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the [g]perseverance and the faith of the [h]saints."

We never pick up the sword no matter what we trust in JEHOVAH'S Power he needs no human help to deal with his enemies the persecutors of his people.

Nincs:This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.

Only after Caracalla’s Constitutio Antoniniana (212), all free men in the empire became Roman citizens.

But perhaps from the fact that Jesus and the apostles were not soldiers in the Roman army, do you infer that the Scriptures suggest that military service is inherently sinful for Christians? That's a very weak argument.

Me: is the weakness of this strawman why you prefer it to my actual argument.

The fact that the faithful Jews found the idolatry of Roman military service objectionable is of interest though. The sovereigns of this age demand the highest allegiance even above God their objections notwithstanding, make no mistake this commitment to in effect put the human sovereign in the place of God is the meaning of your pledge. So if you take the pledge of military service with some other intention you are in effect lying. The fact that your church has counseled its followers to in effect show higher allegiance to earthly sovereigns by killing or even being prepared to killed fellow subjects( or at least those consider such) of the highest sovereign totally Exposes your church  as the Satanic fraud that it is, this is my actual argument.

NINCS:"this is your opinion, no actual evidence."

Oh come on, do JWs treat the Sermon on the Mount as commandments? No Christian does, as it is a moral guideline. In Catholic theology, the evangelical COUNSELS [such as virginity (Mt 19:12), poverty (19:21), obedience (20:27)] are distinguished from the evangelical commandments.

Me:Your abject biblical illiteracy is showing what does Matthew 19:12,19:22,20:27 have to do with the sermon on the mount. For future reference the sermon on the Mount starts with the beattitudes at Matthew 5 and ends at Matthew 7, and yes JEHOVAH'S People do attempt to apply the principles found there we testify that theses have proved superior to counsels of the churches of Christendom.

Can you be more specific as to just what is objectionable re:Matthew ch.19:12, or perhaps you would prefer to hear it from the apostle Paul 

1Corinthians Ch.7:1NIV"Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.”

It's not a mandate it's wise counsel.


Nincs:"you only don’t like this because you can’t find anyone who agrees with you"

Oh, but I do, quite the opposite, I have cited several scholars above, check it out: Edward A. Ryan, Hans von Campenhausen, Louis J. Swift, John Helgeland, James Turner Johnson, Daniel Philpott, S.J. Massaro, Thomas A. Shannon, John Eppstein, David Hunter. These researchers have examined the question "a bit" more thoroughly than those tendentious websites that only look for isolated quotes from the Church Fathers, completely ignoring the principles of citation.

"And why does Tertullian, Origen and Clement all agree with me?"

Me:why are you arguing with yourself my chosen weapon is ALWAYS the sword of the spirit JEHOVAH'S Word none of these dead philosophers impress me . Although they seem almost like they are gods to you and your kind. I don't know why you are attributing these totally out of character type of "arguments" to me. I suspect it is because my actual arguments would require sound biblical scholarship to plausibly address and that is just not your strong suit.

Nincs:They don't. Just read the Helgeland study here, he systematically addresses these Church Fathers who are often cited abusively: https://archive.org/details/christiansmilita0000helg

Furthermore, the neglect of the socio-historical-political context is also characteristic of this method, for example, many Church Father quotes could be found condemning attendance at the theater, but why? Because the theater at that time was about something else than it is today. Similarly, the condemnation of service in the Roman army by some Church Fathers at that time can plausibly be attributed to the fact that, due to the requirements of the imperial cult (emperor worship), and such a service indeed could not be conscientiously performed.

"would also be helpful if scripture references in 1 passage the trinity, Paul demonstrated he could do this Or the 2 nature doctrine I can play this game too."

You can only play this game with those who believe in "sola Scriptura," but I don't. However, you - theoretically - proclaim that all your principles and doctrines can explicitly be found in the Bible, so I rightly point out that they can not. We, on the other hand, do not claim such, so you cannot demonstrate inconsistency in this.

Me: I don't know what could have possessed you to think that the opinions of dead men could mean anything to me. The word of the living God JEHOVAH is my lamp.

And sola scriptura is not the issue your abject biblical illiteracy is.

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