Nincs: It seems you missed that this comment was intended for Anonymous, but I'll respond to your post anyway.
"A practicing Jew would certainly object to the idolatry that serving in the Roman army at the time"
Exactly, this was the real issue, not military service itself! Just as the Jewish residents of the Roman Empire avoided the Roman army for THIS reason, the early Christian Church had similar reservations. However, once this profession no longer involved idolatrous rituals, there would be no objection to it.
Me: all war involves idolatry because we are call upon to endanger fellow subjects(and prospective subjects) of JEHOVAH'S Kingdom. Thus disregarding the higher allegiance we owe to JEHOVAH'S Kingdom. The hyperpolitical mindset that your church has implanted in you would make that difficult to appreciate. If as you claim true one corner of your mouth you acknowledge the higher allegiance you owe to God's kingdom . You will see how impossible it is to menace the lives and property of your fellow loyalists(or even prospective loyalists) of said Kingdom as your utterances out the other side of your mouth allow.
1John Ch.4:20NIV"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen."
This not the arcane mystical type of agape your church practices which permits the mass fratricide all of Christendom has become infamous for. This is the agape described by scriptures such as
1Corinthians Ch.13:4-7NIV"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."
nincs:"serving in the various armies [...] would be a flagrant violation of the higher allegiance we owe to that kingdom."
However, this is just proof by assertion. You have not demonstrated from the Scriptures that this would indeed be a violation.
"The Christian simply cannot pick up the sword in the service of the Imperial or national ambitions of any prince of the present age."
Me: creative use of ellipses the reader will note that I have quoted Mr.nincsnevem in toto, thus I have permitted my readership to make up its own mind as to whether I have misrepresented him or not. So I'm going to quote again
Nincs:While an imperialist or chauvinist war cannot be considered a "just war" (and I have not defended such wars!), it is primarily the responsibility of the "higher authorities" to ensure that the decision to go to war meets the "jus ad bellum" requirements. Citizens only have the right to refuse participation in clearly unjust wars. In such cases, it is indeed a moral requirement to "put down the sword." However, you are engaging in a straw man argument here, as I did not defend participation in such unjust conflicts.
Revelation 13:10 does not support your stance. Just before this verse, the persecution of Christians is mentioned (v. 7); the verse is intended to comfort Christians by assuring them that those who imprison or kill them will be punished just as severely as they treated their fellow humans. Christians should believe that all their sufferings will be turned to good by the Lord. The context is about urging patience in the face of Roman persecution, which has no relevance to our debate.
Nincs:I did not claim that God "needs human help to deal with his enemies the persecutors of his people." By this logic, doctors would also be unnecessary since God "needs no human help to heal diseases."
"The sovereigns of this age demand the highest allegiance even above God."
Oh, really? Where? Perhaps in North Korea or Meiji-era Japan, but I don't know of any modern leaders demanding divine status.
You implied it,the wars waged by human sovereigns tend to multiply injustice rather than the reverse. The suggestion that refusing to take sides in the conflicts among princes of the present age who are principally concerned with their own sovereignty, leaves one open to blame for failure of JEHOVAH'S Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven is blasphemous.
Daniel Ch.2:34NKJV"You watched while a stone was cut out WITHOUT HANDS, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
JEHOVAH'S Kingdom is both set up and triumphs over its enemies without human help or agency.
And your claim that you are unaware that the military commanders of the present age expect total allegiance sounds incredibly naive of course in my actual post I acknowledged that they would hardly ever openly admit this(more creative license with my words). Do you think that if a military recruiter suspected that a prospective recruit was more loyal to some clergy he viewed as God's representative than to the nation's military commanders he would recruit that person?
"...this commitment to in effect put the human sovereign in the place of God is the meaning of your pledge. So if you take the pledge of military service with some other intention you are in effect lying."
Oh, so you've elevated yourself to the role of examining hearts and minds to judge how others perceive their service? Make no mistake: I am not a soldier, but I do not believe that those who are have elevated the state to the role of God.
The fact that you are expected to battle fellow believers proves my point. They are wearing their hearts on their sleeves ,I don't need to be JEHOVAH'S Angel to read it
Nincs:"Your abject biblical illiteracy is showing what does Matthew 19:12,19:22,20:27 have to do with the sermon on the mount."
Where did I claim that these verses are part of the Sermon on the Mount? I cited them as examples of evangelical counsels, which Christ introduces with "If you want to be perfect..." while introducing the commandments like this: "if you want to enter life, keep the commandments." (Mt 19:17)
Well let's see what Christ has to say on the matter he closes his sermon on the mount with.
matthew ch.7:24-27NIV“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash"
Personally I would rather be like the Wise man in this scenario.
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