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Saturday, 19 August 2023
Against Nincsnevem XXIII
Nincsnevem:Also, since this is relevant to the topic, I'll mention that Jehovah's Witnesses often point out that why death would be a punishment if their souls would live on in heaven. But the question is inherently flawed, since we don't say that. Even then, it wouldn't be a punishment, a shame that this hypothetical scenario has nothing to do with what we teach. Just at first glance
AservantofJEHOVAH: I Suspect that most JWS would be savvy enough to know that the souls of Adam and Eve would go in the other direction if there was such an intermediate state. What I do remember asking is why the righteous dead Having been freed from their sinful bodies and having received the post mortem evangel that they supposedly receive are not praising JEHOVAH.
Isaiah ch.38:18,19NIV"18For the grave cannot praise you,
death cannot sing your praise;
those who go down to the pit
cannot hope for your faithfulness.
19The living, the living—they praise you,
as I am doing today;
parents tell their children
about your faithfulness"
You claim that Jesus parable at Luke 16:19-31 is a literal understanding of condition of the righteous dead in their intermediate state, the word picture there is one of feasting and Joyful fellowship for the righteous so why aren't they praising JEHOVAH who has made this provision for them?
Also how could it be a kindness for Jesus to take Lazarus away from this bliss and return him to the Sinful body and world he had just escaped?
Against nincsnevem XXII
Mr.Nevem:The Satanic claim "you will not surely die" (Genesis 3:4) has nothing to do with the immortality of the soul. God proposed here that if they break His command, then "in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die." From this, it is apparent that here "you will die" did not refer to the literal, physical death, but the consequence of it, that man will die, or (his body) will return to the dust. Here, the word "death" does not refer to physical death but spiritual death, separation from God, and loss of grace.
AsservantofJEHOVAH:Typical argument by assertion The bible explains what death means
Genesis ch.3:19NIV"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou RETURN unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou RETURN."
Of course the churches of Christendom ignore the obvious meaning of RETURN the soul reverts to its pre-sin state at death and divine justice can make no further demands upon it
Romans ch.6:7NIV"For he that is dead is freed from sin."
The dead CANNOT sin only the living can sin and the punishment is death for those who do sin but sin and the penalty for sin ends at death. So to punish the dead any further would be unrighteous on JEHOVAH'S part
Nincsnevem"In the day that you sin, you will die" - When you sin, I will take away my grace, eternal life, and you will die.
When Satan says, "you will not surely die," he means, "Just go ahead and sin; God will not fulfill His threat (he's just bluffing)."
AservantofJEHOVAH: JEHOVAH calls what is not as though it is so once he has predetermined an outcome he Can speak as if it has already occurred that is why on the very day that the prospect of eternal human perfection had ended for the original human pair they could be regarded as already dead living from JEHOVAH standpoint would mean entitled to eternal human perfection any less than that would be regarded as dead.
Genesis ch.3;22,23NIV"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken"
From here on humanity was dead. We note that there was no tree of death in the garden. So eternal human perfection was JEHOVAH'S purpose for our race and not superhuman perfection.
Nincsnevem:Then the "dispute" with Satan was not about the immortality of the soul but whether humanity will lose God's special privilege that the human body is free from the compulsion of death. God warned Adam not to eat from 'the tree of the knowledge of good and evil', or he would die on that day (Gen 2:17). Adam and Eve ate from it anyway, but did not die a biological death >on that day<, as they lived much longer (Gen 5:5). Adam, however, lost fellowship with God (he was driven out of Eden) and eternal life (he could no longer eat from the tree of life, Gen 3:23-24). Adam's (man's) death on "that day" was spiritual-religious death (cf. Eph 2:1), which led to biological death. So the "death" with which God threatens man is twofold: the death of supernatural life (i.e., loss of sanctifying grace) and [as a result] the mortal transformation of the body: before the Fall, man could have not died; since then, man cannot not die.
AservantofJEHOVAH: Just as JEHOVAH can count those he has determined to grant eternal life as already living though dead. he can count those he is determined to punish with eternal death as already dead though alive.
Luke ch.9:60NIV"Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”"
That is why Christ death can furnish a substitutionary atonement. If the wages of sin were eternal conscious torment. Then Christ would need to undergo eternal conscious torment to be a substitute for us
Nincsnevem:This of course is avoided by the Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation, and they want to explain away the "day" here as exactly a thousand years. But why would it be a thousand years "on that day"? I know there's a biblical statement, "With the Lord, a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day" (2 Peter 3:8), but that doesn't make it applicable here (this is a leap in logic), so this is entirely a leap of logic. Also, we know that this is metaphorical language, illustrating that God is outside time, and before Him, a day is not literally exactly a thousand years but eternity.
The fact of the matter is the man lost his human imperfection on that day and thus as from the divine perspective was dead on that day. Psalm ninety was written by the prophet Moses it points out that a yom from JEHOVAH'S Perspective would necessarily be very different from man's perspective does the Catholic church teach that the seven yom in which JEHOVAH Made the world are seven 24 hour yom. As I pointed out the man lost his human perfection on that 24 hour day but even from the standpoint of experiencing the consequences of losing human perfection from the divine perspective less than a day could have said to have passed .
JEHOVAH'S perspective is the only one that matters
Psalms ch.90:3,4NIV"You turn people back to dust,
saying, “Return to dust, you mortals.”
4A thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night."
Nincsnevem:The Peter's part (which I say again, they arbitrarily tie together with the Moses' part using biblical leap logic) is obviously only symbolic: especially since the context does not explain how Adam "died" >that day<, but why the Last Judgment day is delaying in human terms, the answer: because in God's view our "time" is just a moment. "A thousand years" is an ancient analogy: a very long time.
AservantofJEHOVAH:When the man was driven away from the tree of life his doom was confirmed and he lost his human perfection that is how he died that day
Genesis ch.3:22-23NIV"22And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken."
nincsnevem: and then, as I mentioned, the subject of the debate was not whether man has an immortal soul but whether he will die physically (i.e., whether God will carry out the threat, or be afraid that man has become like God, autonomous, or self-legislating).
So if we insist on taking the bodily death on that day literally, as Jehovah's Witnesses do, but rule out the false excuse, then Satan would be right: man did not die that day but lived much longer.
AservantofJEHOVAH: By stripping the man of his human perfection on that day and driving him from the tree of life JEHOVAH Fulfilled his Just punishment on the man the sentence was staggered to allow the birth of some who will show a different and thus vindicate JEHOVAH as creator. You see the real debate is whether or not man's fall was really the fault of his maker or not? If man was well made why could he not fulfill the purpose for which he was made? Those who argue that man's sin was predestined are the ones who are taking Satan's side of the debate.
Separating eggs from zeros?
Fossil Friday: Imagining Eggs in the Famous Archaeopteryx Fossils
Friday, 18 August 2023
Thursday, 17 August 2023
Robert Bowman's attempt to slant the playing field .
Robert Bowman:If you want to disprove the doctrine of the Trinity, you must disprove one of the following propositions:
1. There is one God (i.e., one proper object of religious devotion).
AservantofJEHOVAH: the Nicene creed teaches that this one/ most high God is essentially tri-personal so I merely need to demonstrate from scripture that the one/ most high God is not tri-personal to falsify the Nicene creed,and most other mainstream versions of the trinity. Most Trinitarian arguments also have the unintended consequence of falsifying the creeds for they center on demonstrating that the unipersonal Christ is the supposedly tri-persinal most high God
2. The one God is a single divine being, the LORD (Jehovah, Yahweh).
3. The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is God.
AservanofJEHOVAH:The God and Father of Jesus is, according to scripture, the most high God/the only true God and thus has no co-equals as a matter of fact the unqualified ho Theos i.e is used exclusively of him throughout the scriptures a real problem for Christendom's creeds
Luke ch.1:32NIV"He will be great and will be called the Son of the MOST HIGH. The LORD God will give him the throne of his father David,"
John ch.17:3NIV"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
AservantofJEHOVAH:Thus the God and Father of Jesus is both the distinct person and the distinct utterly falsifying bowman's conception of the trinity.
4. The Son, Jesus Christ, is God.
AservantofJEHOVAH:Very vague thus allowing Trinitarians room to be slippery. I am sorry but you will need to be tighter than this if you want to be taken seriously. Is Jesus the most high God . This would necessarily exclude his having any co-equals and of course if the most high God is necessarily tri-personal it would necessarily rule out any unipersonal Christ or logos being numerically identical to the tri-personal Most High God.
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
aservantofJEHOVAH,:No it/he is not.
6. The Father is not the Son.
AservantofJEHOVAH:Since we have established that the God and Father of Jesus is the MOST HIGH God This seems like a moot point.
7. The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
AservantofJEHOVAH;Well okay does this prove that he/it is coequal with the God and Father of Jesus though?
8. The Son is not the Holy Spirit.
Anyone who affirms all eight of these propositions without equivocation is affirming the doctrine of the Trinity, since this is just what the doctrine of the Trinity says.
AservantofJEHOVAH:The propositions are too vague and need some tightening up the central concern of biblical theology is the identity of the MOST HIGH GOD i.e JEHOVAH Christendom's creeds render a positive identity most high impossible. Only in scripture do we see the most high clearly identified as the God and Father of Jesus.
In order to dispute the doctrine of the Trinity, then, you *must* take issue with one or more of the propositions stated above. Anything else is tangential to the issue.:
AservantofJEHOVAH:In order for us to take the trinity seriously a forthright statement as to who /what Trinitarians identify as the MOST HIGH GOD must be issued one that leaves no room for the usual trinitarian slipperiness.
Then a comparison with the bible as to who the bible identifies as the most high God so as to demonstrate that Christendom's most high God is numerically identical to the Bible's most high God.
The thumb print of JEHOVAH cosmic edition vs. biological edition..
Comparing Design Evidence in Physics Versus Biology — Is One Stronger than the Other?
The issue for Trinitarians'.
Luke ch.1:32NIV"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,"
The God and Father of Jesus is ,according to scripture, THE MOST HIGH GOD. This what Trinitarians' need to address the God and Father of Jesus has no co-equals in absolute contradistinction to any of the members of Christendom's trinity.
Indeed the identity of the most high God on the whole is a Trinitarian issue because none of the entities name in the trinity is without numerous co-equals and thus none of them match the designation most high which the scriptures gives to the Lord JEHOVAH.