Darwinism vs. the real world X

The Cardiovascular System: Regulating Heart Rate

Howard Glicksman September 2, 2015 11:37 AM 

Editor's note: Physicians have a special place among the thinkers who have elaborated the argument for intelligent design. Perhaps that's because, more than evolutionary biologists, they are familiar with the challenges of maintaining a functioning complex system, the human body. With that in mind, Evolution News & Views is delighted to present this series, "The Designed Body." Dr. Glicksman practices palliative medicine for a hospice organization.

The job of the heart is to pump blood throughout the body to meet its metabolic needs. However, since blood has mass, this means the heart must have enough power to move it against natural forces like inertia, friction, and gravity.

Cardiac output is directly related to how much blood the heart pumps out with each contraction (stroke volume) and how fast the heart beats per minute (heart rate). At rest, with a stroke volume of 70 mL and a heart rate of 72 bpm, the cardiac output is about five liters per minute (70 x 72). However, with increased muscle activity and physical effort, the autonomic nervous system stimulates the heart to pump harder and faster so the cardiac output can rise to the occasion.

Clinical experience tells us that our earliest ancestors would have needed a cardiac output of at least 25 liters per minute in order to carry out activities needed to survive and reproduce. The normal heart, under the influence of the sympathetic nerves, accomplishes this by increasing its stroke volume to 125 mL and its heart rate to 200 bpm (125 x 200). The last few articles in this series have shown that to accomplish the task, the heart must have enough blood flow to its myocardium. Its valves must let blood flow freely forward without letting any go backward, and the ventricles must contract and relax properly.

Evolutionary biologists would have us believe that all of this came about by chance and the laws of nature alone. However, clinical experience teaches that real numbers have real consequences. Without wide enough coronary arteries for adequate blood flow to the heart muscle, open enough valves for forward blood flow, tight enough closed valves to prevent backward blood flow, and adequate ventricular contraction and relaxation for a large enough stroke volume, the cardiac output needed to meet the metabolic needs of our earliest ancestors could never have been achieved.

But there is one more very important component of heart function. Here I will review how real numbers affect the heart's electrical system.

As you may recall, since K⁺ ions tend to leak out of the cell through their specific ion channels more than Na⁺ ions do through theirs, the inside of the plasma membrane has as a negative electrical charge and the outside has a positive one. This difference in the electrical charge between the inside and the outside of the cell is called the resting membrane potential.

Nerve and muscle cells are considered excitable because, when properly stimulated, they are able to reverse this situation, by making the inside positive and the outside negative, in a process called depolarization. After this happens, they undergo repolarization to return to the resting membrane potential. In general, skeletal muscle requires stimulation by a nerve to cause depolarization and muscle contraction.

However, although nerves can modulate how often and how hard the heart contracts, there are cells within the heart that can depolarize on their own without the need for direct nerve stimulation. In particular, the right atrium houses the sinus node (sino-atrial or SA node) which depolarizes faster than all of the others. This makes it the natural pacemaker of the heart and, at rest, generally makes the heart contract at 60-100 beats per minute (bpm). The electrical message from the sinus node stimulates the atria to contract and moves quickly to a junction box that sits between the atria and the ventricles called the atrio-ventricular node (AV node).

The AV node is the electrical wiring that physically connects the atria to the ventricles. Like the sinus node, the AV nodal tissue can depolarize automatically and generate its own electrical impulse. But its intrinsic rate is only 40-60 bpm. Since the sinus node intrinsically has a faster depolarization rate than the AV node, its electrical impulse depolarizes the AV node before it can generate its own impulse. The AV node slows the electrical impulse by about 1/10 of a second, allowing the atria to contract fully, and then sends the message to specialized conducting tissue. This tissue then rapidly conducts the electrical impulse to the ventricles so that coordinated contraction and the pumping of blood out of the heart can take place.

Like the sinus and AV nodes, the specialized conducting tissue below the AV node can also automatically depolarize. However, its intrinsic rate is only 20-40 bpm and so it is normally stimulated from above before it can generate its own impulse. It is important to note that this hierarchical set up for impulse formation and conduction is what allows for coordinated ventricular contraction and normal cardiac function. Let's see what can happen when the electrical system isn't working right.

Normal sinus rhythm is when the sinus node paces the heart at 60-100 bpm and sinus bradycardia is when it paces it at less than 60 bpm. It is not unusual for a person to have a heart rate of 45-50 bpm at complete rest and even 30-40 bpm during sleep. However, if the heart rate stays below 45 bpm while awake, and in particular, if it does not increase adequately during physical activity, then something is wrong.

This is called a bradyarrhythmia and in the absence of medication or hypothyroidism, is usually due to either a defect in sinus node function (sick sinus syndrome)or a problem with conduction (atrioventricular heart block). The commonest causes for these conditions are age-related degeneration and coronary artery disease.

The normal cardiac output (CO) at rest is about five liters per minute and is directly related to the heart rate (HR), which is usually about 72 bpm. This means that a bradyarrhythmia of 35 bpm, at rest, would cut the CO in half to two and a half liters per minute. It is possible to live with such a slow heart rate and low cardiac output, as long as you do nothing at all. Most people with significant bradyarrythmias are not able to get their heart rate up fast enough, or their cardiac output high enough, to be physically active.

In fact, most people with bradyarrhythmias have problems just walking slowly or going up stairs, in addition to normal, everyday activities. This means that having a bradyarrhythmia would have made it impossible for our earliest ancestors to generate the CO of 25 liters per minute they would have needed to survive and reproduce. So real numbers can mean debility.

A sinus tachycardia is when the sinus node paces the heart at a rate greater than 100 bpm. An increase in metabolic needs, resulting in stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system, is the usual cause. Physical exertion, stress, anxiety, fear, pain, fever, heart failure, hyperthyroidism and low blood pressure are some of the usual culprits. However, conditions such as poor coronary blood flow, emphysema, hypertension and low serum potassium, can predispose some of the ion channels in the heart tissue to malfunction.

These changes can result in abnormalities of depolarization and repolarization which lead to increased electrical irritability of the atria and the ventricles. When this happens, they can take over the pacing of the heart from the sinus node with unusually rapid heart rates that exceed 100 bpm and are called tachyarrhythmias.

The atrial tachyarrhythmias can cause the heart rate to rise to over 200 bpm, significantly reducing the time for relaxation and filling of the ventricles. Since these fast heart rates occur spontaneously at rest and without exercise-induced sympathetic stimulation, the stroke volume and cardiac output can often drop dramatically. People with atrial tachyarrhythmias usually feel a fluttering in the chest along with weakness, dizziness, chest discomfort, and shortness of breath on limited exertion. If our earliest ancestors had had atrial tachyarrhythmias, they never could have survived.

In summary, four different aspects of cardiac function would need to have been working properly to allow for the survival of our earliest ancestors: coronary blood flow, valve function, ventricular contraction and relaxation, and the electrical system. When it comes to survival, life has to follow the rules by taking control and making sure that all the numbers regarding its various functional parameters add up properly.

Evolutionary theory claims to explain how life came into being by describing only how life looks but not how it actually works within the laws of nature. That is a significant drawback that seriously undermines the theory's value as an explanation of biological origins.

Next, we'll consider what actually causes the heart to stop beating in cardiac arrest.

The bottomline re:Darwinism

Darwinian Evolution Fails Cost-Benefit Analysis

Ann Gauger September 2, 2015 3:57 AM |

Imagine what would happen if (1) many corporate executives started research departments, but only one department survived cost-cutting. (2) One of the working scientists in that department stumbled on an innovation with some promise, but none of the scientists survived the next round of layoffs. The innovation was discovered again by a new hire and this time (3) he had a lucky idea but was ignored by management because the idea yielded no profit. He, along with the other scientists, was let go again. (4) Everything started all over. Eventually (a very long time later) a series of scientists rediscovered a pathway to the same idea without being laid off, and a scientist saw a way to implement it. The big payoff arrived.

Starting from the beginning, the odds of having that innovation occur would be small. In the scenario I described, no reward was seen at any stage until stage four, so for bottom line-driven management it was more cost-effective to lay off the staff than to keep paying them. The question is, could the innovation make it through the constant pruning. I set the scenario up so the payoff was realized, but in reality each scientist could have been cut at any time and the information gained in previous steps could have been lost. Only the last step had a big payoff, so once it occurred, management would see it as an innovation worth keeping.

So what is this strange scenario about? It's not about bashing management. Instead, it illustrates the difficulty of preserving an unrealized future innovation from blind cost-cutting processes.

Bacterial populations are much, much larger than my management scenario (there are 10²⁰ E. coli on the planet at any one time) and the pruning due to cost-cutting reduces things only partially. But because bacteria live in boom-and-bust cycles (they eat their resource until they run out, then die; the lucky few recolonize), this is another source of pruning and a mutation has to yield a significant benefit for cells carrying it not to be lost due to random processes. This means that any non-beneficial accumulated mutations are likely be lost at each cycle, even if they lead to a beneficial adaptation.

Now what if there had been only two steps to reach the goal, with a small benefit for the first step and a large benefit for the second? That would seem to be easy, right? Darwinian evolution would predict that this two-step pathway should be well within reach of mutation and selection, and occur readily. Yet it wasn't. In a previous post I reported that the odds are that onlyone in a trillion cells would take that two-step adaptive pathway to a high function rather than have the relevant genes deleted or broken, all due to the high (in this case, extremely high) cost of making the currently useless proteins. Cells stopped at the first adaptive step and eliminated the proteins rather than follow the two-step path to a big payoff. This surprising fact has a profound effect on the likelihood of evolutionary success.

In our experiment the cost of making useless proteins was very high. In nature the cost of making useless proteins is unlikely to be as high, but it's still enough to cause loss of new potentially useful mutations. Experimentshave shown that bacteria tend to ditch genes (and proteins) they don't need. By our calculations, because of this and other factors involving population dynamics, any pathway requiring more than three neutral steps will be beyond the reach of purely unguided processes, even in bacteria. Bottom line: the cost of expression can definitely impede the pathway to Darwinian evolution.

A line in the sand XXII

Kentucky clerk won't let deputies issue same-sex wedding licenses, stays in jail.

CNN)Rowan County, Kentucky, clerk Kim Davis was given a second chance: She didn't have to issue same-sex marriage licenses herself; she merely had to agree not to interfere with five deputy clerks who had told the federal judge they'd issue them in her stead.

But Davis' lawyer told U.S. District Judge David Bunning that his client would not allow her deputies to issue the licenses. Davis was not in the courtroom for the second session. She was in a hallway outside.

"We cannot represent to the court that she would allow licenses to be issued," attorney Mat Staver said.

Earlier Thursday, Bunning remanded Davis into the custody of U.S. marshals for refusing to heed a U.S. Supreme Court order legalizing same-sex marriage, saying she would remain in jail until she complies with the ruling.

Bunning then asked Davis' six deputy clerks whether they would issue the licenses, and despite some of them holding the same religious beliefs as Davis, five told Bunning they would issue the licensesDuring Davis' hearing, April Miller told the court that the clerk had denied her a marriage license three times, and when Davis took the stand to deliver her at-times emotional testimony, she explained that she could not issue the licenses because of her religious beliefs.

"You can't be separated from something that's in your heart and in your soul," she told the judge, according to CNN affiliate WYMT-TV.

American Civil liberties Union attorneys argued in a motion filed Mondaythat Davis "continues to collect compensation from the Commonwealth for duties she fails to perform."

They said they didn't want her to be jailed as punishment, but rather, the attorneys asked the court to "impose financial penalties sufficiently serious and increasingly onerous" to make her comply with the court order.

Bunning, however, apparently felt she deserved jail time, but he also told Davis she could end her incarceration by complying with the Supreme Court order and telling her deputy clerks to do the same.

He said he didn't believe fining Davis would convince her to comply with the high court ruling, especially considering that Davis had testified earlier that her supporters are raising funds for her and calling her office to offer financial support, WYMT reported.

'Her conscience remains unshackled'

Bunning said he, too, was religious, but he explained that when he took his oath to become a judge, that oath trumped his personal beliefs, the station reported.

"Her good faith belief is simply not a viable defense," Bunning said.

Davis thanked the judge for his ruling, according to WYMT. She was not placed in handcuffs, but a U.S. marshal led her out of the courtroom.

Celebrations and protests erupted outside the courthouse in Ashland, Kentucky, when those who attended the hearing exited the courtroom with news of the decision. Chants of "Love won! Love won!" filled the air.

Staver, founder of Liberty Counsel, which represented Davis, said in a statement he was "stunned" by the judge's ruling.

"Kim Davis is being treated as a criminal because she cannot violate her conscience. While she may be behind bars for now, Kim Davis is a free woman. Her conscience remains unshackled," he said in the statement."The tragedy is that there are simple ways to accommodate her convictions. Just remove her name from the marriage licenses. That's all she has asked from the beginning. Today's events will escalate this debate to a new level."

Davis, an apostolic Christian who says she has a sincere religious objection to same-sex marriage, has refused to issue any marriage licenses since the Supreme Court decision in June legalizing same-sex marriage.

In court documents filed Wednesday, her attorneys argue that she shouldn't be held in contempt. Instead, they argued, there are alternatives that would allow couples to get marriage licenses in Rowan County without going against Davis' religious beliefs.

Among the options they offered were allowing other officials to issue marriage licenses in the county, distributing marriage licenses at the state level or changing marriage license forms to remove Davis' name.

A seat inside the courtroom was a hot ticket. Before the session began, more than 100 people were turned away from Bunning's courtroom, which holds 300 people. A federal law enforcement source told CNN that because of the controversy surrounding the case, Bunning was provided with a security escort on his way into work.

'Respect the law; do your job!'

A large crowd, leaning mostly in support of Davis, gathered outside the courthouse before the hearing, many carrying signs. "Jesus Saves" read one, "Homo sex is sin," read another, while one sign pointed passers-by to the Bible's Acts 5:29, which quotes Peter and other apostles saying, "We must obey God rather than human beings!"

Lana Bailey of Worthington, about a 20-minute drive northwest of Ashland, brought signs as well, both of which seemed to address Davis: "My gay friends pay taxes which helps pay you... right??" and "Respect the law; do your job!"

"I'm here to support equal rights for all," she said. "It's just called respect. I don't understand why we're having this. Why are we spending money on this? ... If you can't do your job then you need to step down. You need to resign."

Jason Porter, a pastor at Ashland's Gospel Light Baptist Church, spoke for the other side and said he wasn't at the courthouse "to bash people's decisions and lifestyles," but he worried that if people were allowed to continue doing whatever they want to do, "the floodgates will open to other areas of polygamy."

He did not elaborate on how same-sex marriage was akin to polygamy, which is the act of having multiple spouses. Polygamy is illegal in every state.

Echoing those who cited Acts 5:29, he said he felt Davis had a right to refuse to issue the marriage license and, waving his Bible, he told CNN he bore no hatred toward gay couples and is merely standing "for the truths of my God's word."

"I just know the destruction that this brings. As a pastor, I see the background. I see the broken families. I see the AIDS. I see the folks dying of diseases and the brokenness of relationships," he said.

Lawyers: Issuing licenses 'violates her conscience'

Two other county clerks in Kentucky are also refusing to issue same-sex marriage licenses, according to a statement on Kentucky Gov. Steve Beshear's website.

Bunning ordered Davis to resume the issuing of marriage licenses on August 12. Monday night, the Supreme Court denied an emergency application from Davis, who asked that Bunning's order be put on hold pending appeal.

In a statement released Tuesday, Davis, a Democrat, said she has received death threats but intends to continue to serve as the county clerk -- a position she was elected to fill in November.

In court papers, attorneys for Davis argued that she is unable to comply with the court orders because issuing same-sex marriage licenses "irreparably and irreversibly violates her conscience."

Finding her in contempt of court, they argued in the motion filed Wednesday, also would "substantially burden Davis' religious exercise."

Related: Court clerk who won't issue marriage licenses has been divorced three times

But some scoff at the clerk, suggesting she's a hypocrite because she'sbeen divorced three times.

Davis said she's a different person now since becoming a Christian four years ago.

"I am not perfect," she said in a statement. "No one is. But I am forgiven."

The ACLU attorneys, who represent two same-sex couples and two opposite-sex couples who want to get married in Rowan County, argued that Davis has no legal basis to avoid performing her duties as a government clerk.

And a federal prosecutor said it's time for Davis and her county to comply.

"Government officials are free to disagree with the law, but not disobey it," U.S. Attorney Kerry B. Harvey said in a statement. "The County Clerk has presented her position through the federal court system, all of the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. It is time for the Clerk and the County to follow the law."

CNN's Sonia Moghe, Alexandra Field, Ariane de Vogue and Jeremy Diamond contributed to this report..

Darwinists try to get their theory off on a technicality

Biochemist Larry Moran Denies Darwin's Doubt, and We Doubt His Arguments

Ann Gauger September 3, 2015 5:44 AM

It has come to my attention that Larry Moran, professor of biochemistry at the University of Toronto, feels left out of the debate about Darwin's Doubt, documented in Debating Darwin's Doubt. He writes in a post on his blog that he's "a little miffed" about being omitted from the latter. Moran posted a number of critiques of Stephen Meyer's book, to which we offered no response at the time. No slight intended, Dr. Moran.

I have now taken a look at the first two of his posts, and noticed some biases. Moran showed a few illustrations that might impress the uninformed, but it's what he didn't say that is revealing.

Trees seeking to represent the history of life are drawn to convey different meanings. Moran's tree shows the diversity of life from a phylogenetic view. Of course, unicellular organisms represent the vast majority of this tree, leaving plants, animals, and fungi to one tiny portion of the tree, indicated by a circle. Moran implies that this indicates the Cambrian explosion was a mere blip. What he doesn't say is that the Cambrian explosion resulted in the sudden diversity of metazoa, or multicellular organisms like animals and seaweed, for which we have many fossils. As a portion of the diversity on the planet they may be a small fraction, but that doesn't mean the explosion wasn't real.

Take a look at Figure 1 from a paper on the subject ("The Cambrian 'explosion': Slow-fuse or megatonnage?") by Simon Conway Morris, an expert in the field. The first fossils for each group are indicated by solid circles. The branch points and putative common ancestors are indicated by asterisks, but have not been observed in the fossil record. To the left are the dates in millions of years. You can read across the tree and see that most of the phyla appear between about 525 and 535 million years ago. That is sudden in geologic time. The few groups present in the Vendian (pre-Cambrian) and still with us today include the fungi, the sponges, and sea anemones. All the rest of the phyla except one, which appears later, first come on the scene in the Cambrian. That is a short time for such basic differences in body plans to appear.

Morris ends his paper with this:

To conclude: The Cambrian explosion is real and its consequences set in motion a sea-change in evolutionary history. Although the pattern of evolution is clearer, the underlying processes still remain surprisingly elusive.

Moran's figure (where apparently a number of phyla have been demoted to classes) reveals the same problem. If you take into account where the circles (the crown groups) are, you will see that the major groups of animals first appear as fossils in the same narrow window. The rest of the branch points are phylogenetic inferences from molecular data, for which no fossils exist.

How did such diverse animals first appear? And how do we reconcile morphological data from fossils (and studies of modern representatives) with the molecular data that keeps pouring in? It is not so easy. A recent paper by Ronald Jenner ("Macroevolution of Animal Body Plans: Is There Science after the Tree?") acknowledges the problem. His abstract:

A renewed emphasis on the gaps in organization that exist between the crown-group body plans of higher-level animal taxa is a hallmark of the emerging consensus in metazoan phylogenetics. Bridging these gaps is the greatest hurdle that stands in the way of translating our knowledge of phylogeny into a renewed understanding of the macroevolution of animal body plans. Unless a good fossil record is available, there is little hope that we will be able to bridge many of these gaps empirically. We have, therefore, little choice but to resort to our more-or-less informed imagination to produce the historical narratives that are the ultimate goal of our studies of animal evolution. Only by fully engaging with the challenges of devising testable scenarios will we be able to tell where along the spectrum of science and fictionour understanding of animal body plan evolution will finally come to rest. [Emphasis added.]

Strong language. There's more in the paper:

The phylogenetic lineages of the major metazoan crown groups are discouragingly short in terms of the number of nodes available along each lineage for resolving the assembly of body plans. This seriously limits the resolution achievable by scenarios, especially in the absence of fossils, but before any evolutionary transformations between body plans can be traced, we must infer hypothetical ancestors. In their recent book on the Cambrian explosion, Erwin and Valentine (2013) likened our attempts to infer the body plans of ancient animal ancestors to séances. The older the nodes in question, the more apt this analogy is. The divergences between most pairs of higher-level crown-group-sister taxa are so significant that the inferences of hypothetical ancestral body plans are generally accompanied by substantial error bars. These become compounded as one integrates the inferences of increasing numbers of hypothetical ancestors to reach deeper and older nodes in the tree. Add to this matrix of uncertainty the potentially limitless play of our imagination, and our attempted explanatory historical narratives may end up being little more than untestable fiction.

Since these were some of the main points of Darwin's Doubt, perhaps it's fair to say there is reason to doubt that scientists have it all worked out. Sorry, Dr. Moran.

The end of the Wicked according to scripture

Carefully and prayerfully examine what these text of scripture state are destiny of the wicked and honestly ask yourself do the Holy scriptures support the Doctrine of eternal torment of the wicked,a thing that would necessitate their miraculous preservation or do the the scriptures indicate that the wicked will be eternally preserved or the reverse as their final punishment.


Psalm1:4-6NASB"The wicked are not so,
But they are like chaff which the wind drives away.Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,

Nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.For the Lord [a]knows the way of the righteous,

But the way of the wicked will perish."

Psalm7:9NASB"O let the evil of the wicked come to an end, but establish the righteous;

For the righteous God tries the hearts and [a]minds."

Psalm9:5NASB"You have rebuked the nations, You have destroyed the wicked;

You have blotted out their name forever and ever."

Psalm9:17NASB"The wicked will [a]return to [b]Sheol,
Even all the nations who forget God."

Psalm11:6NASB"Upon the wicked He will rain [a]snares;

Fire and brimstone and burning wind will be the portion of their cup."(Think Sodom and Gomorrah)

Psalm31:17ASV". Let me not be put to shame, O Jehovah; for I have called upon thee: Let the wicked be put to shame, let them be silent in Sheol."(Emphasis mine)

Psalm34:21NASB"Evil shall slay the wicked,

And those who hate the righteous will be [a]condemned."

Psalm37:10NASB"Yet a little while and the wicked man will be no more;

And you will look carefully for his place and he will not be there."

Psalm37:20NASB"But the wicked will perish;
And the enemies of the Lord will be like the [a]glory of the pastures,
They vanish—like smoke they vanish away."

Psalm37:28NASB"For the Lord loves [a]justice
And does not forsake His godly ones;
They are preserved forever,
But the [b]descendants of the wicked will be cut off."

Psalm37:ASV"Wait for Jehovah, and keep his way, And he will exalt thee to inherit the land: When the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it."

Psalm37:38ASV"As for transgressors, they shall be destroyed together; The end of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm58:10ASV"The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked;"

Psalm68:2ASV"As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: As wax melteth before the fire, So let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

Psalm75:8ASV"For in the hand of Jehovah there is a cup, and the wine foameth; It is full of mixture, and he poureth out of the same: Surely the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall drain them, and drink them."

Psalm75:10ASV"All the horns of the wicked also will I cut off; But the horns of the righteous shall be lifted up."

Psalm92:7NASB"When the wicked spring as the grass, And when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; It is that they shall be destroyed for ever."(Emphasis Mine)

Psalm94:23ASV"And he hath brought upon them their own iniquity, And will cut them off in their own wickedness; Jehovah our God will cut them off."(We see the issue proportionality being mentioned whatever suffering is brought upon the wicked must be proportional to the suffering they have caused even Satan himself has only been able to cause a finite amount of suffering)

Psalm101:8ASV"Morning by morning will I destroy all the wicked of the land; To cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of Jehovah."

Psalm104:35ASV" Let sinners be consumed out of the earth. And let the wicked be no more. Bless Jehovah, O my soul. Praise ye Jehovah."

Psalm106:18ASV"And a fire was kindled in their company; The flame burned up the wicked."

Psalm112:10ASV"The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; He shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: The desire of the wicked shall perish"

Psalm119:119ASV"Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth like dross: Therefore I love thy testimonies."

Psalm139:19ASV" Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: Depart from me therefore, ye bloodthirsty men."

Psalm141:10ASV"Let the wicked fall into their own nets, Whilst that I withal escape."(Again how much suffering can the wicked cause in a finite lifetime)

Psalm145:20ASV"Jehovah preserveth all them that love him; But all the wicked will he destroy."

Proverbs2:22ASV"But the wicked shall be cut off from the land, And the treacherous shall be rooted out of it."

Proverbs5:22ASV"His own iniquities shall take the wicked, And he shall be holden with the cords of his sin."(Jah's chastisement is justly proportionate)

Proverbs10:7ASV"The memory of the righteous is blessed; But the name of the wicked shall rot."(They will not even be mourned or memorialised in any way)

Proverbs10:25ASV"When the whirlwind passeth, the wicked is no more; But the righteous is an everlasting foundation."(See Jeremiah25:32,33)

Proverbs10:27ASV"The fear of Jehovah prolongeth days; But the years of the wicked shall be shortened."(The length of their existence will be cut short i.e the opposite of preserved.)

Proverbs10:28ASV" The hope of the righteous shall be gladness; But the expectation of the wicked shall perish."

Proverbs10:30ASV"The righteous shall never be removed; But the wicked shall not dwell in the land."(what would being excluded from the presence of an omnipresent God entail.)

Proverbs11:7ASV"When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish; And the hope of iniquity perisheth." 

Proverbs11:8ASV"The righteous is delivered out of trouble, And the wicked cometh in his stead."

Proverbs11:10ASV" When it goeth well with the righteous, the city rejoiceth; And when the wicked perish, there is shouting."

Proverbs12:7ASV"The wicked are overthrown, and are not; But the house of the righteous shall stand."(Emphasis Mine)

Proverbs13:9ASV"The light of the righteous rejoiceth; But the lamp of the wicked shall be put out."

Ecclesiastes8:13ASV "but it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God."

So unfiltered by man made dogma.The wicked and their ways meet the same end.Both they and the distress they have caused vanish forever consigned by God and his messiah to the realm of dreams and shadows So that even their very memory will be no more i.e if words are to have definite contextually determined meanings.