Against nincsnevem ad pluribus IV

 Nincs:"For future reference the sermon on the Mount starts with the beatitudes at Matthew 5 and ends at Matthew 7."

You don't say? The point here is that the teachings of the Sermon can be divided into general precepts and specific counsels. Obedience to the general precepts is essential for salvation, but obedience to the counsels is only necessary for perfection. The great mass of the population needs only to concern themselves with the precepts; the counsels must be followed by a pious few such as the clergy and monks. This theory was initiated by St. Augustine and later fully developed by St. Thomas Aquinas, though an early version of it is cited in Didache 6:2, "For if you are able to bear the entire yoke of the Lord, you will be perfect; but if you are not able to do this, do what you are able", and reflected in the Apostolic Decree of the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:19–21). Geoffrey Chaucer also did much to popularize this view among speakers of English with his Canterbury Tales (Wife of Bath's Prologue, v. 117-118).

Christ point is that the whole of the Sermon on the mount is instructive to every sincere servant of JEHOVAH.

Matthew Ch.7:24-27NKJV"“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26“But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

Note please "whoever" "everyone" "these sayings" the whole of the Sermon the mount is wisdom for the one loyal to JEHOVAH.

In as much as this is a discussion about whether the Christian is free to slaughter is brother servant of JEHOVAH so long as some politician demands it and his brother happens to live in another land. I certainly understand why Christendom's clergy would not want rank and file members thinking too much on the sermon on the mount.

Nincs:"we testify that these have proved superior to counsels of the churches of Christendom."

What humility! This boast reminds me of Luke 18:11 and a bit of Donatist-Cathar morality.

The "Boast"would be in the real author of the text the Lord JEHOVAH unlike the seeming implications of some Catholics' claims we do not claim to have given the world the Bible(a claim very humbly made no doubt).

We don't regret in the slightest that with JEHOVAH'S unfailing help we have kept our hands free from the blood of all men. And your mindless sloganeering provides no basis for a reconsideration.

Nincs:"what is objectionable re:Matthew ch.19:12"

My objection is not to the verse itself but to the idea of making evangelical counsels into commandments for the entire Church. This also applies to the Sermon on the Mount.

"It's not a mandate it's wise counsel."

That's what I argued, and this is also true for "turning the other cheek", etetc.

Me:If we've both agreed that the sermon on the mount is wise counsel why would anyone choose the folly of ignoring it. See Matthew ch.7:24-27

Nincs:"my chosen weapon is ALWAYS the sword of the spirit JEHOVAH'S Word none of these dead philosophers impress me"

Earlier, Anonymous and others referenced the practice of the early Christian church. It is entirely legitimate to cite research on this topic and what can be determined from the sources. In summary, the findings do not support the idea that the Church held the same view on military service as modern JWs up until Constantine's conversion.

"I don't know what could have possessed you..."

With the utmost respect, I ask you to moderate your tone. Instead of accusing me of demonic possession for offering counterarguments, please read: Proverbs 15:1, 2 Timothy 2:25, Titus 3:2.

Me:Physician heal yourself. All we ever get from you is industrial strength condescension.

Matthew Ch.7:5NIV"You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

Perhaps it's time to review your attitude toward the sermon on the mount( well at least this verse).

 

Against nincsnevem ad pluribus III

Nincs: It seems you missed that this comment was intended for Anonymous, but I'll respond to your post anyway.

"A practicing Jew would certainly object to the idolatry that serving in the Roman army at the time"

Exactly, this was the real issue, not military service itself! Just as the Jewish residents of the Roman Empire avoided the Roman army for THIS reason, the early Christian Church had similar reservations. However, once this profession no longer involved idolatrous rituals, there would be no objection to it.

Me: all war involves idolatry because we are call upon to endanger fellow subjects(and prospective subjects) of JEHOVAH'S Kingdom. Thus disregarding the higher allegiance we owe to JEHOVAH'S Kingdom. The hyperpolitical mindset that your church has implanted in you would make that difficult to appreciate. If as you claim true one corner of your mouth you acknowledge the higher allegiance you owe to God's kingdom . You will see how impossible it is to menace the lives and property of your fellow loyalists(or even prospective loyalists) of said Kingdom as your utterances out the other side of your mouth allow.

 1John Ch.4:20NIV"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen."

This not the arcane mystical type of agape your church practices which permits the mass fratricide all of Christendom has become infamous for. This is the agape described by scriptures such as 

1Corinthians Ch.13:4-7NIV"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

nincs:"serving in the various armies [...] would be a flagrant violation of the higher allegiance we owe to that kingdom."

However, this is just proof by assertion. You have not demonstrated from the Scriptures that this would indeed be a violation.

"The Christian simply cannot pick up the sword in the service of the Imperial or national ambitions of any prince of the present age."

Me: creative use of ellipses the reader will note that I have quoted Mr.nincsnevem in toto, thus I have permitted my readership to make up its own mind as to whether I have misrepresented him or not. So I'm going to quote again 

Revelation Ch.13:10NKJV"He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the [e]patience and the faith of the saints."

I will here also recall the principle of the higher allegiance owed to JEHOVAH'S Kingdom which would logically mean that loyalists of that kingdom cannot engage in deadly conflict with each other no matter which politician demands it acts ch.5:29.

Nincs:While an imperialist or chauvinist war cannot be considered a "just war" (and I have not defended such wars!), it is primarily the responsibility of the "higher authorities" to ensure that the decision to go to war meets the "jus ad bellum" requirements. Citizens only have the right to refuse participation in clearly unjust wars. In such cases, it is indeed a moral requirement to "put down the sword." However, you are engaging in a straw man argument here, as I did not defend participation in such unjust conflicts.

Revelation 13:10 does not support your stance. Just before this verse, the persecution of Christians is mentioned (v. 7); the verse is intended to comfort Christians by assuring them that those who imprison or kill them will be punished just as severely as they treated their fellow humans. Christians should believe that all their sufferings will be turned to good by the Lord. The context is about urging patience in the face of Roman persecution, which has no relevance to our debate.

The principles in JEHOVAH'S Word apply in all times and places, there is no sunset clause in the command. Our response to state sponsored suppression must NEVER be to respond in kind. And we definitely never want to be instruments of violence. Brother is never to slaughter brother(or even prospective brother) politics has so divided your church that there is no international brotherhood among you that alone is a disqualifier.

Nincs:I did not claim that God "needs human help to deal with his enemies the persecutors of his people." By this logic, doctors would also be unnecessary since God "needs no human help to heal diseases."

"The sovereigns of this age demand the highest allegiance even above God."

Oh, really? Where? Perhaps in North Korea or Meiji-era Japan, but I don't know of any modern leaders demanding divine status.

You implied it,the wars waged by human sovereigns tend to multiply injustice rather than the reverse. The suggestion that refusing to take sides in the conflicts among princes of the present age who are principally concerned with their own sovereignty, leaves one open to blame for failure of JEHOVAH'S Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven is blasphemous.

Daniel Ch.2:34NKJV"You watched while a stone was cut out WITHOUT HANDS, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 

JEHOVAH'S Kingdom is both set up and triumphs over its enemies without human help or agency.

And your claim that you are unaware that the military commanders of the present age expect total allegiance sounds incredibly naive of course in my actual post I acknowledged that they would hardly ever openly admit this(more creative license with my words). Do you think that if a military recruiter suspected that a prospective recruit was more loyal to some clergy he viewed as God's representative  than to the nation's military commanders he would recruit that person?

"...this commitment to in effect put the human sovereign in the place of God is the meaning of your pledge. So if you take the pledge of military service with some other intention you are in effect lying."

Oh, so you've elevated yourself to the role of examining hearts and minds to judge how others perceive their service? Make no mistake: I am not a soldier, but I do not believe that those who are have elevated the state to the role of God.

The fact that you are expected to battle fellow believers proves my point. They are wearing their hearts on their sleeves ,I don't need to be JEHOVAH'S Angel to read it

Nincs:"Your abject biblical illiteracy is showing what does Matthew 19:12,19:22,20:27 have to do with the sermon on the mount."

Where did I claim that these verses are part of the Sermon on the Mount? I cited them as examples of evangelical counsels, which Christ introduces with "If you want to be perfect..." while introducing the commandments like this: "if you want to enter life, keep the commandments." (Mt 19:17)

Well let's see what Christ has to say on the matter he closes his sermon on the mount with.

matthew ch.7:24-27NIV“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash"

Personally I would rather be like the Wise man in this scenario.

Against nincsnevem ad pluribus II

Nincs: "Then why did Jesus not? Why do the apostles not?"

Meaning what? That they did not serve in the Roman army? Firstly, because it was not their calling, for example, Jesus was a 'tekton' (artisan or craftsman), not a soldier, and His primary mission was to proclaim the gospel and offer Himself as a sacrifice. The apostles also had civilian occupations. Secondly, they were Jews, not Roman citizens, and Jews rarely served in the Roman army because their monotheism, observance of the Sabbath, abstinence from pork, and other cultural and religious laws made it difficult for them to fulfill the duties of a Roman soldier. Therefore, for instance, the Jews of Ephesus were exempted from recruitment into the armies of Pompey in 49 BC and again by Dolabella in 43 BC. The latter publicized his decision all over Asia Minor and beyond.

Me: well I don't recall asking the question so I can only guess at the reasoning of the questioner or I could enquire and get his clarification as ought to. A practicing Jew would certainly object to the idolatry that serving in the Roman army at the time but what does any of this have to do with my actual argument though.

Once the JEHOVAH'S Congregation became international rather than national serving in the various armies on the unbelieving nations would signal a readiness kill fellow subjects of JEHOVAH'S Kingdom which would be a flagrant violation of the higher allegiance we owe to that kingdom. The Christian simply cannot pick up the sword in the service of the Imperial or national ambitions of any prince of the present age.

Revelation Ch.13:10NASB"If anyone [f]is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the [g]perseverance and the faith of the [h]saints."

We never pick up the sword no matter what we trust in JEHOVAH'S Power he needs no human help to deal with his enemies the persecutors of his people.

Nincs:This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.

Only after Caracalla’s Constitutio Antoniniana (212), all free men in the empire became Roman citizens.

But perhaps from the fact that Jesus and the apostles were not soldiers in the Roman army, do you infer that the Scriptures suggest that military service is inherently sinful for Christians? That's a very weak argument.

Me: is the weakness of this strawman why you prefer it to my actual argument.

The fact that the faithful Jews found the idolatry of Roman military service objectionable is of interest though. The sovereigns of this age demand the highest allegiance even above God their objections notwithstanding, make no mistake this commitment to in effect put the human sovereign in the place of God is the meaning of your pledge. So if you take the pledge of military service with some other intention you are in effect lying. The fact that your church has counseled its followers to in effect show higher allegiance to earthly sovereigns by killing or even being prepared to killed fellow subjects( or at least those consider such) of the highest sovereign totally Exposes your church  as the Satanic fraud that it is, this is my actual argument.

NINCS:"this is your opinion, no actual evidence."

Oh come on, do JWs treat the Sermon on the Mount as commandments? No Christian does, as it is a moral guideline. In Catholic theology, the evangelical COUNSELS [such as virginity (Mt 19:12), poverty (19:21), obedience (20:27)] are distinguished from the evangelical commandments.

Me:Your abject biblical illiteracy is showing what does Matthew 19:12,19:22,20:27 have to do with the sermon on the mount. For future reference the sermon on the Mount starts with the beattitudes at Matthew 5 and ends at Matthew 7, and yes JEHOVAH'S People do attempt to apply the principles found there we testify that theses have proved superior to counsels of the churches of Christendom.

Can you be more specific as to just what is objectionable re:Matthew ch.19:12, or perhaps you would prefer to hear it from the apostle Paul 

1Corinthians Ch.7:1NIV"Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.”

It's not a mandate it's wise counsel.

Nincs:"you only don’t like this because you can’t find anyone who agrees with you"

Oh, but I do, quite the opposite, I have cited several scholars above, check it out: Edward A. Ryan, Hans von Campenhausen, Louis J. Swift, John Helgeland, James Turner Johnson, Daniel Philpott, S.J. Massaro, Thomas A. Shannon, John Eppstein, David Hunter. These researchers have examined the question "a bit" more thoroughly than those tendentious websites that only look for isolated quotes from the Church Fathers, completely ignoring the principles of citation.

"And why does Tertullian, Origen and Clement all agree with me?"

Me:why are you arguing with yourself my chosen weapon is ALWAYS the sword of the spirit JEHOVAH'S Word none of these dead philosophers impress me . Although they seem almost like they are gods to you and your kind. I don't know why you are attributing these totally out of character type of "arguments" to me. I suspect it is because my actual arguments would require sound biblical scholarship to plausibly address and that is just not your strong suit.

Nincs:They don't. Just read the Helgeland study here, he systematically addresses these Church Fathers who are often cited abusively: https://archive.org/details/christiansmilita0000helg

Furthermore, the neglect of the socio-historical-political context is also characteristic of this method, for example, many Church Father quotes could be found condemning attendance at the theater, but why? Because the theater at that time was about something else than it is today. Similarly, the condemnation of service in the Roman army by some Church Fathers at that time can plausibly be attributed to the fact that, due to the requirements of the imperial cult (emperor worship), and such a service indeed could not be conscientiously performed.

"would also be helpful if scripture references in 1 passage the trinity, Paul demonstrated he could do this Or the 2 nature doctrine I can play this game too."

You can only play this game with those who believe in "sola Scriptura," but I don't. However, you - theoretically - proclaim that all your principles and doctrines can explicitly be found in the Bible, so I rightly point out that they can not. We, on the other hand, do not claim such, so you cannot demonstrate inconsistency in this.

Me: I don't know what could have possessed you to think that the opinions of dead men could mean anything to me. The word of the living God JEHOVAH is my lamp.

And sola scriptura is not the issue your abject biblical illiteracy is.

Against nincsnevem ad pluribus

Nincs: As early as the second century, Christians began to participate in the Roman military, police, and government in large numbers, as noted by Daniel Philpott in "The Early Church" at Notre Dame University.

Me: well there were people claiming to be Christians making common cause with the pagan Roman state, there were also people claiming to be Christians who believed that waging war in the service of pagan sovereigns was utterly incompatible with being a subject of JEHOVAH'S Kingdom at that time. So this is yet another example of Mr.Nincsnevem merely being argumentative in lieu of making any real argument. JEHOVAH'S Word is the final authority on the matter not the unfounded claims of any man or group of men.

Revelation Ch.13:10NIV"10He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the [e]patience and the faith of the saints."

Clear instructions to not retaliate against our persecutors but show faith in JEHOVAH'S Supremacy while we patiently wait on his Justice.

NINCS:Military service was one way to make a living, and there was a need to defend the borders of the empire against barbarian incursions. As the army's duties expanded to include more police-like activities such as traffic and customs control, firefighting, apprehending criminals and bandits, maintaining peace, quelling street brawls, and performing engineering and construction work for which the Roman army was well-known, this choice became less problematic. This perspective is supported by S.J. Massaro and Thomas A. Shannon in their book "Catholic Perspectives on Peace and War."

Me:Were these "barbarians" any more barbaric than Rome whose reputed idea of peace was to make a desert of any land refusing to pay tribute to the emperor "son of Jupiter"? Only JEHOVAH knows for sure.

Interestingly the barbarians who eventually stormed the gates of the "eternal city" also claimed to be Christians.

True Christians call men to something  truly new not the same old tribalism 2.0.

The increasing number of soldiers counted among the later martyrs indicates that many Christians served in the military. From about the middle of the second century, Roman army officers were expected to participate in the Imperial Cult and sacrifice to the emperor. During the reign of Diocletian, this obligation was extended to the lower ranks as a test for those suspected of being Christian. To avoid needless blood guilt and the risk of idolatry, Christians were counseled not to enlist but were encouraged to continue praying for the civil authorities, as explained by John Eppstein in "The Catholic Tradition of the Law of Nations."

Me: again the fact that as today many so called Christians were an utter embarrassment to Christ and his God is only to be expected according to scripture.

Revelation Ch.2:14NIV"Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality."

1john Ch.2:18NIV"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even NOW MANY antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

Satan started the construction of his Christian counterfeit early. There is the warning that THE Last hour had come. Things could only be expected to get  much worse re:the emergence of false teachers once the last of Christ apostles passed on

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinus_of_Caesarea

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcellus_of_Tangier